Several different summing questions?

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Question 2.

Let's say the passive summing device I'm using only has one output. How would I be able to send the mix back into the converter and monitor the mix too? Can I use a Y cable for each channel or should I look for a summing device that has two sets of outputs?

I am assuming you are not fully analogue or you probably wouldn't be using a dedicated summing box. IMO You are best off monitoring after the DAW. So feed the output of your summing device back into the DAW (To a new track for instance) and monitor the output DAC of your DAW just like you would if you were not going out of the box at all. This way you hear what is going on after the signal has passed through the converters (which will be in the loop when you rerecord your signal anyway).

Question 1.

I have a Sebatron VMP-4000a. I was going to use this with a passive summing mixer. Has anyone tried this preamp in their summing (or whatever you call it) chain?

Question 3.

for around 1500.00 is there an active summing drive that may work better than the Sebatron/Passive summing combo?

Personally I don't believe in dedicated summing boxes. I believe they are a marketing invention from analogue gear manufacturers trying to counter the decline of sales of analogue consoles (and other analogue gear). Summing is one thing that digital can do much more accurately than analogue. Digital summing is basically as perfect as it gets.

Regardless of one's opinion on summing boxes and analogue summing, I think everyone agrees that you need very high quality converters to make it worth while going out into the analogue domain and back into digital. Lesser converters will just degrade your signal. The cost of multiple high-quality converters would best be invested in the best possible stereo converter pair and a high-end stereo analogue device like a compressor if you want to add some analogue colour. This also gives you the added benefit of having the functionality of an extra high quality compressor (or whatever) in your tool set. More bang for your buck.

As for using a mic preamp for adding colour to a stereo mix... I would say use gear designed for the task and working with line-level signals. (I haven't used the Sebatron box so I could be wrong on this).

Alistair

[Karloff70]

That makes me want to add that it is not perfection which sounds good, so I'd say the vulcan logic of the previous post has some merit, but only some......IMO

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Gearslutz App

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

That makes me want to add that it is not perfection which sounds good

Indeed. Hence the suggestion of using a dedicated high quality stereo analogue device for colouring. I'm not saying not to colour. I'm saying to do it as well as possible with the best possible gear for the budget available.

(And this is assuming that enough has been invested in the monitoring chain and studio acoustics in the first place otherwise it really doesn't matter what you use. You can't make the right decisions if you can't hear what you are doing).

Alistair

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Indeed. Hence the suggestion of using a dedicated high quality stereo analogue device for colouring. I'm not saying not to colour. I'm saying to do it as well as possible with the best possible gear for the budget available.

Alistair

Sure, only then you only get one layer of colour over the lot. Another possible attraction of analog summing is how easy it makes it to go 'Brauer' and set up possible groups of different colours with no latency bollocks plugging hardware between the converter and summing with a patchbay.....just one thing.

The other thing is to my mind 'colour' doesn't come in spades from expensive things on the mix bus, but more from multiple flavoured lesser things abused on separates. Of course you can achieve that with inserts in the DAW/hardware without a summing box. Just saying, as it always feels like telling someone who doesn't know better that all the clolour he will want in his production is to be found by putting some expensive something over his mix bus is kind of a lazy lie. It does stuff, sure and sweet stuff at that, but not what comes to my mind when I think of needing some colour in a production. It's just subtle (if still important in the scheme of things...) stuff.

[smoovemode]

Thanks for this info fellas. Do you believe using a digital mixer like a DM 4800 could work for summing (since it has an analog side too) or are we talking about something better and more expensive?

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Thanks for this info fellas. Do you believe using a digital mixer like a DM 4800 could work for summing (since it has an analog side too) or are we talking about something better and more expensive?

There isn't any point in using a digital mixer for summing unless you are not using a DAW. It can make sense for other reasons though like ergonomics, impressing clients etc, just not for summing or processing reasons and even so, if I wanted the ergonomics of a large format console plus the flexibility of a DAW I would get Pro Tools HD(X) with an ICON or Euphonix series controller. (Or possibly Nuendo/Cubase with an Euphonix series controller. It depends on the needs and workflow in your studio).

Software DAWs these days have huge headroom and precision with their 32 or 64 bit float summing engines (which ends up being 80 bit summing really due the architecture of modern CPUs) and allow to pick the best processors (plugins) to suite your taste, needs and budget. They also have integrated automation, nice large screens etc etc. Also each time a new PC/Mac comes up you can increase the power of your whole system without changing anything else and of course each time a new version of your DAW comes out you gain new features and functionality. That doesn't happen with a hardware mixer.

IMO these days there a few situations where a digital mixers beats a DAW with a high-end controller. (They are some. Live FoH or live broadcast mixing for instance).

Alistair

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Sure, only then you only get one layer of colour over the lot.

Better one layer of high quality nicely coloured paint than several layers of off-colour cheap paint. IMO the same applies to audio.

Another possible attraction of analog summing is how easy it makes it to go 'Brauer' and set up possible groups of different colours with no latency bollocks plugging hardware between the converter and summing with a patchbay.....just one thing.

I'm probably misunderstanding you but analogue hardware has zero noticeable latency. (Point being, whether you go out through multiple DACs to a summing box with or without any subsequent analogue devices and back into the DAW or whether you go out a stereo pair of DACs and back into the DAW after (multiple) analogue processing won't have any direct effect on the latency. That said, using more outputs on your DAW puts more strain on your system meaning you will have to increase your DAW's latency settings earlier which really will affect the latency you are working at).

The other thing is to my mind 'colour' doesn't come in spades from expensive things on the mix bus, but more from multiple flavoured lesser things abused on separates.

It really depends on the box. Something like this can give spades of colour: Thermionic Culture : THE CULTURE VULTURE (Mastering Plus)

Of course you can achieve that with inserts in the DAW/hardware without a summing box. Just saying, as it always feels like telling someone who doesn't know better that all the clolour he will want in his production is to be found by putting some expensive something over his mix bus is kind of a lazy lie.

It isn't a lazy lie. It is context dependant. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines but somehow I doubt the OP has the budget for 24 channels of Lavry Gold converters (or other) to go out of his DAW to a high-end summing box etc.

It does stuff, sure and sweet stuff at that, but not what comes to my mind when I think of needing some colour in a production. It's just subtle (if still important in the scheme of things...) stuff.

A lot of colour can be imparted on the way in through colourful preamps etc. And for electronic music I don't really believe more colour is always good. But different strokes for different folks...

Alistair

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Better one layer of high quality nicely coloured paint than several layers of off-colour cheap paint. IMO the same applies to audio.

The one layer of nice, expensive seethrough laquer which makes the end product shiny is one thing and the multiple colours used to paint the picture below (i.e. colours applied to the separates) is another. The picture's actual colours underneath are more important. Basically what I am saying is that likely many guys who have only ever been ITB put all their hope in one pricey box for the mix bus and then put all their plugin VI heaven through it and hope it will turn it into warm, cuddly sauce. And it doesn't do that. Just puts a thin layer of seethrough laquer over the top of whatever plastic comes out.


I'm probably misunderstanding you but analogue hardware has zero noticeable latency. (Point being, whether you go out through multiple DACs to a summing box with or without any subsequent analogue devices and back into the DAW or whether you go out a stereo pair of DACs and back into the DAW after (multiple) analogue processing won't have any direct effect on the latency. That said, using more outputs on your DAW puts more strain on your system meaning you will have to increase your DAW's latency settings earlier which really will affect the latency you are working at).

You are. Obviously. Hardware not having any latency is the point. It is why, if you want to do a multi compression buss thing, "Brauer" style, it is best left in the analog domain, and hence a summing box comes in handy for that. Using more outputs of my DAW puts more strain on it? Not in my universe, mate.....lol. They're only outputs!

It really depends on the box. Something like this can give spades of colour: Thermionic Culture : THE CULTURE VULTURE (Mastering Plus)

Sure it can, but then 'spades of colour' applied over a mix has a tendency to kill off more than it heals......whereas separates really can take spades of colour and then you end up with good contrasts...


It isn't a lazy lie. It is context dependant. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines but somehow I doubt the OP has the budget for 24 channels of Lavry Gold converters (or other) to go out of his DAW to a high-end summing box etc.

All I meant by the 'lazy lie' thing is I see the 'put an expensive box over the DAW output' bundled around as a heal all, and it isn't. I suspect a lot of people think it will be, try it and get disappointed. Only trying to forewarn a few of them not to expect miracles. And what's with 24ch of Lavry Gold? I don;t get you at all.....since the OP is asking about summing I am assuming he has outputs to actually sum. Whether they are Lavry's or whatever is neither here nor there....

A lot of colour can be imparted on the way in through colourful preamps etc. And for electronic music I don't really believe more colour is always good. But different strokes for different folks...

Alistair


Nothing's 'always good'. but if you want to apply a lot of colour, on the separates is where to do it, not on the mix.

To the OP: Why don't you just get some resistors and a Patchbay and search out a passive summing box schematic. Soldering one up will cost you peanuts. Take the patchbay top row and plug the outputs of your converter into the back and take leads out of the bottom back into your summing network, going into two channels of Sebatron. If you do 8 into 2 you can do a mini Brauer with compressors on 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 and 1-2 clean.

Most of all, then you'll know what it sounds like. I bet you'll stay there for a bit, if not it didn't cost much and you can look at more pricey summing without much loss after.....

P.S. sorry for the bold stuff, not meaning to shout, only didn't know how to make it stand out from the original message.....

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

To the OP: Why don't you just get some resistors and a Patchbay and search out a passive summing box schematic. Soldering one up will cost you peanuts. Take the patchbay top row and plug the outputs of your converter into the back and take leads out of the bottom back into your summing network, going into two channels of Sebatron. If you do 8 into 2 you can do a mini Brauer with compressors on 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 and 1-2 clean.

Most of all, then you'll know what it sounds like. I bet you'll stay there for a bit, if not it didn't cost much and you can look at more pricey summing without much loss after.....

P.S. sorry for the bold stuff, not meaning to shout, only didn't know how to make it stand out from the original message.....

....What?? LOL Do what's ?? Solder what to what? You brought up a good idea. But, my soldering days are behind me.

What do you think about the fulcrum or little one passive summers? I can use them with my Sebatron (if it's clean enough).

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

....What?? LOL Do what's ?? Solder what to what? You brought up a good idea. But, my soldering days are behind me.

What do you think about the fulcrum or little one passive summers? I can use them with my Sebatron (if it's clean enough).

lol....fair play. Fulcrum is the standard classic passive.

I have not heard the Sebatrons so can't help you there, you'll have to try it out anyway to see whether it suits YOU. But from reading various reviews here it does suggest they are quite neutral when not driven hot and could well be very sweet for the job. Get your favourite gear dealer to lend you a Fulcrum and find out.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

The one layer of nice, expensive seethrough laquer which makes the end product shiny is one thing and the multiple colours used to paint the picture below (i.e. colours applied to the separates) is another. The picture's actual colours underneath are more important.

Absolutely. If the basic colours are cheap then it will look cheap regardless. Hence the need for quality at every stage IMO. Analogue is not a panacea. Bad analogue is just as bad as bad digital. (And by bad I don't necessarily mean bad gear. It can be good gear used for the wrong purpose).

Basically what I am saying is that likely many guys who have only ever been ITB put all their hope in one pricey box for the mix bus and then put all their plugin VI heaven through it and hope it will turn it into warm, cuddly sauce. And it doesn't do that. Just puts a thin layer of seethrough laquer over the top of whatever plastic comes out.

If it sounds like plastic coming out of the box, you did something (or several things) wrong. No amount of analogue gear will fix that. And that includes on busses/groups.

You are. Obviously. Hardware not having any latency is the point. It is why, if you want to do a multi compression buss thing, "Brauer" style, it is best left in the analog domain, and hence a summing box comes in handy for that.

Fair enough although this is your own tangent. Not something asked by the OP. Still worth considering if the OP wants to go down that route. Then again, if the multiple converters are available you still save money by using them directly as inserts. Of course that assumes good enough converters or it won't be worth going out to analogue IMO.

sing more outputs of my DAW puts more strain on it? Not in my universe, mate.....lol. They're only outputs!

When was last time you benchmarked this? I have tested various DAWs and various interfaces and increasing the number of active I/O increases system load. This is pretty well known. It isn't even controversial or anything. Having multiple streams of data (audio) flow between the DAW and the hardware drivers has to put more strain on the system.

Sure it can, but then 'spades of colour' applied over a mix has a tendency to kill off more than it heals......whereas separates really can take spades of colour and then you end up with good contrasts...

Out of curiosity, what is your setup and gear? And what are you monitoring through?

All I meant by the 'lazy lie' thing is I see the 'put an expensive box over the DAW output' bundled around as a heal all, and it isn't.

This is no different than people believing that an analogue summing box will bring miracles. Funny that.

I suspect a lot of people think it will be, try it and get disappointed.

And many will believe that is is better simply because they invested money into a product. Funny how our brains work.

Common Behavioral Biases - Business Insider

And what's with 24ch of Lavry Gold? I don;t get you at all.....since the OP is asking about summing I am assuming he has outputs to actually sum. Whether they are Lavry's or whatever is neither here nor there....

If the converters are not up to scratch going out to analogue will do more damage than good regardless of what analogue gear one uses.

Nothing's 'always good'. but if you want to apply a lot of colour, on the separates is where to do it, not on the mix.

Agreed to an extent but I would go further and say it usually should be applied at the source on individual elements if it is needed at all.

To the OP: Why don't you just get some resistors and a Patchbay and search out a passive summing box schematic. Soldering one up will cost you peanuts. Take the patchbay top row and plug the outputs of your converter into the back and take leads out of the bottom back into your summing network, going into two channels of Sebatron. If you do 8 into 2 you can do a mini Brauer with compressors on 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8 and 1-2 clean.

I'm a bit lazier than that so I'd try and find a friendly dealer and get a few devices on loan and compare analogue summing to a good stereo compressor on the mix bus or maybe a culture vulture or something... Or if that isn't possible, rent a studio with the gear available for a day and bring stems and stereo mixes etc to test with. Probably the easiest, most cost effective and most informative approach. (Then record the different approaches and post on Gearslutz to see 150 different opinions on which actually sounds best ).

P.S. sorry for the bold stuff, not meaning to shout, only didn't know how to make it stand out from the original message.....

No problem.

Alistair

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Absolutely. If the basic colours are cheap then it will look cheap regardless. Hence the need for quality at every stage IMO. Analogue is not a panacea. Bad analogue is just as bad as bad digital. (And by bad I don't necessarily mean bad gear. It can be good gear used for the wrong purpose).

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. For stuff in a mix to sound clean, there has to be stuff sounding dirty or else nothing will sound clean against it. hence a LOT of cheap analog gear is totally useful on separates. Shitty analog gear can be just the ticket, and having people believe only 'good' (read expensive) gear is useful is just misguided.

If it sounds like plastic coming out of the box, you did something (or several things) wrong. No amount of analogue gear will fix that. And that includes on busses/groups.

It doesn't at mine, thanks, but that was my exact point. A layer of seethrough laquer will not cure a plastic thing, but a lot of hardware used on the separates may well help a hell of a lot.

Fair enough although this is your own tangent. Not something asked by the OP. Still worth considering if the OP wants to go down that route. Then again, if the multiple converters are available you still save money by using them directly as inserts. Of course that assumes good enough converters or it won't be worth going out to analogue IMO.

The converter quality comment just lacks reality, as most converters today are good enough to go out to hardware and make it well worth it. The gain is MUCH bigger than any loss.

When was last time you benchmarked this? I have tested various DAWs and various interfaces and increasing the number of active I/O increases system load. This is pretty well known. It isn't even controversial or anything. Having multiple streams of data (audio) flow between the DAW and the hardware drivers has to put more strain on the system.

Again, in a real world situation, not worth worrying about.


Out of curiosity, what is your setup and gear? And what are you monitoring through?

You want to hear about my bedroom warrior setup? lol I run an Alphalink up a Raindirk console and NHT monitoring. Not sure what that will mean to you.

This is no different than people believing that an analogue summing box will bring miracles. Funny that.



And many will believe that is is better simply because they invested money into a product. Funny how our brains work.

Common Behavioral Biases - Business Insider

Yes, and people reading on the internet that only expensive (which is how they read it) analog boxes are worth entertaining, like you type here is only making it worse.

If the converters are not up to scratch going out to analogue will do more damage than good regardless of what analogue gear one uses.

This one, as mentioned before is truly out of date parroting. Pity it still gets spouted, as some guy will believe it and let it stop him having a ball with some hardware......



Agreed to an extent but I would go further and say it usually should be applied at the source on individual elements if it is needed at all.



I'm a bit lazier than that so I'd try and find a friendly dealer and get a few devices on loan and compare analogue summing to a good stereo compressor on the mix bus or maybe a culture vulture or something... Or if that isn't possible, rent a studio with the gear available for a day and bring stems and stereo mixes etc to test with. Probably the easiest, most cost effective and most informative approach. (Then record the different approaches and post on Gearslutz to see 150 different opinions on which actually sounds best ).



No problem.

Alistair

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. For stuff in a mix to sound clean, there has to be stuff sounding dirty or else nothing will sound clean against it.

Anyway, you have a completely different philosophy (or budget) than me. You seem to be monitoring through $200 bookshelf speakers. I wouldn't like to work with that. I don't believe you can really hear what is going on and that might be part of what forms your ideas on gear. (No I haven't heard the NHT's but on average, you get what you pay for). IMO it makes no sense to invest in analogue summing or basically anything if the monitoring, DACs and acoustics are not taken care of first.

Different strokes for different folks...

Have a nice evening!

Alistair

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

Anyway, you have a completely different philosophy (or budget) than me. You seem to be monitoring through $200 bookshelf speakers. I wouldn't like to work with that. I don't believe you can really hear what is going on and that might be part of what forms your ideas on gear. (No I haven't heard the NHT's but on average, you get what you pay for). IMO it makes no sense to invest in analogue summing or basically anything if the monitoring, DACs and acoustics are not taken care of first.

Different strokes for different folks...

Have a nice evening!
Alistair

Different philosophy? I'd say that's an understatement.

Two thoughts come to mind.....Joe Barresi seems to hear what he needs in his NHT's as do a lot of people who know what they're doing, but you didn't know that. You also don't know the first thing about me, what studios and equipment I have used over the years and hence what my ideas on gear are formed by, and likely don't have a clue what a Raindirk console is nevermind sounds like. May I suggest that next time you feel to make a judgement, pick subject matter you know something about. Comes across more credible and less daft that way. Assumptions blended with judgemental cockyness and a little teaspoon of blinkeredness just look silly.

And then you round it off with the classic gearslutz recommendation for everything.........beauty....lol

A very good evening to you too, sir.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Different philosophy? I'd say that's an understatement.

Two thoughts come to mind.....Joe Barresi seems to hear what he needs in his NHT's as do a lot of people who know what they're doing, but you didn't know that. You also don't know the first thing about me, what studios and equipment I have used over the years and hence what my ideas on gear are formed by, and likely don't have a clue what a Raindirk console is nevermind sounds like. May I suggest that next time you feel to make a judgement, pick subject matter you know something about. Comes across more credible and less daft that way. Assumptions blended with judgemental cockyness and a little teaspoon of blinkeredness just look silly.

And then you round it off with the classic gearslutz recommendation for everything.........beauty....lol

A very good evening to you too, sir.

Like I said, have a nice evening!

Alistair

[imloggedin]

I don't know what was said previously because everyone just wants to ****ing argue on here..but I'll give you my opinion.

I hear the difference in analog summing. There's really not much color (if any) in a passive summing device, but there is a difference in the character of the final product. Plus you have the option of choosing different preamp's (color) to use for the make up gain.

If it were me I would go Outputs -> Summing Box -> Preamp -> Compressor -> Input, and then monitor the inputs in your DAW. If you have a zero latency mixer on your audio interface you could monitor them from there too. That way you hear the final product and actually know what you are mixing.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

lol....fair play. Fulcrum is the standard classic passive.

I have not heard the Sebatrons so can't help you there, you'll have to try it out anyway to see whether it suits YOU. But from reading various reviews here it does suggest they are quite neutral when not driven hot and could well be very sweet for the job. Get your favourite gear dealer to lend you a Fulcrum and find out.

Now, My next question is what quality of a converter do I need to get to do this right? Is an Alphalink good enough? It seems like to be the best option for summing, since it offers so many channels at a fair price.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by imloggedin

I don't know what was said previously because everyone just wants to ****ing argue on here..but I'll give you my opinion.

I hear the difference in analog summing. There's really not much color (if any) in a passive summing device, but there is a difference in the character of the final product. Plus you have the option of choosing different preamp's (color) to use for the make up gain.

If it were me I would go Outputs -> Summing Box -> Preamp -> Compressor -> Input, and then monitor the inputs in your DAW. If you have a zero latency mixer on your audio interface you could monitor them from there too. That way you hear the final product and actually know what you are mixing.

Good Idea!

[imloggedin]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Now, My next question is what quality of a converter do I need to get to do this right? Is an Alphalink good enough? It seems like to be the best option for summing, since it offers so many channels at a fair price.

Check this thread and look for the most transparent converter with enough outputs in your price range. I would say that you should target around 16 outputs. The more the better, but the Folcrom only does 16.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by imloggedin

Check this thread and look for the most transparent converter with enough outputs in your price range. I would say that you should target around 16 outputs. The more the better, but the Folcrom only does 16.

And before you go running to buy Motu 828mkII's I'd read a few threads about the Alphalink and see what actual users have to say......as a balance. As in this test it comes out like it was sounding like shite, and it most certainly does not. If you can't make a great sounding record with one, it isn't the Alphalink .....

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

And before you go running to buy Motu 828mkII's I'd read a few threads about the Alphalink and see what actual users have to say......as a balance. As in this test it comes out like it was sounding like shite, and it most certainly does not. If you can't make a great sounding record with one, it isn't the Alphalink .....

I agree.

[SochiTag]

I have a Yamaha N12 desk which I never use but I keep thinking I could use it to reamp and or summing.

Am I barking up the wrong tree with this?

n12 - N - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

[Slikjmuzik]

All you need is this...

Unit - Unit Audio

This...

Regular John Recording - Raleigh, NC

and this...

Samson — S-patch plus

Thank me later...

[imloggedin]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

And before you go running to buy Motu 828mkII's I'd read a few threads about the Alphalink and see what actual users have to say......as a balance. As in this test it comes out like it was sounding like shite, and it most certainly does not. If you can't make a great sounding record with one, it isn't the Alphalink .....

There's no reason to buy an Alphalink if you don't own it already. I have owned many interfaces (including multiple Auroras), and I currently own an 828mkII. IMO the list of interfaces in that thread is accurate. For summing you WANT a transparent D/A. If its $1,000 less than the rest, good for you.

BTW Karloff.. quit ****ing trolling my responses.

[imloggedin]

Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik

All you need is this...

Unit - Unit Audio

This...

Regular John Recording - Raleigh, NC

and this...

Samson — S-patch plus

Thank me later...

Interesting. Do you know the prices on those bus compressors and what they are clones of? And what do you use the patch bay for?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by imloggedin

There's no reason to buy an Alphalink if you don't own it already. I have owned many interfaces (including multiple Auroras), and I currently own an 828mkII. IMO the list of interfaces in that thread is accurate. For summing you WANT a transparent D/A. If its $1,000 less than the rest, good for you.

BTW Karloff.. quit ****ing trolling my responses.

Apart from the fact that it sounds good and is very good value per channel of course. Have you owned or at least used an Alphalink? I 'troll you'? lol....oh dear.

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by imloggedin

Interesting. Do you know the prices on those bus compressors and what they are clones of? And what do you use the patch bay for?

I own one of Dustin's buss compressors. They are essentially SSL clones. I had him add sidechain filters and the ability to switch Lundahl transformers into the output path as opposed to electronically balance. He offers pricing on his site.

The patchbay would be to insert gear after the conversion, before the summing. Only thing else needed would be proper cabling.

[Slikjmuzik]

My apologies, it doesn't look like he offers pricing directly on his website anymore. The only thing I would feel comfortable saying on hear about his prices is that they are well worth and probably about half the cost of a real SSL Buss Compressor. It's a no brainer, especially since you get to design it yourself and you have so many features that you can add to your build to make it custom.