Desperately poor - need to rec. drums! Help!

DaveJes1979 · 29th September 2003

I'm looking to record a standard drum kit on a PC/Cubase-based setup. I need to find a PCI interface card with descent-quality A/D converters (I know there are alot of junk 24/96 converters out there). I am hoping to be able to do this with only 4 tracks (my Mackie VLZ mixer only has 4 mic pres anyway). I have heard that one can effectively track drums even with this spartan track count - 2 overheads, 1 kick, 1 snare.

I would like to spend only $300 for this. I know M-Audio makes a 4-channel card for this much, but I have no idea about the quality. Are there any other ideas? I can be convinced to go as high as $600 if it is really worth it.

At the moment, this is just for doing demo recording, although I'd like to think that the A/D will be good enough that I can save at least some of the "takes" and material for use in the final project when I have a more complete studio setup and produce a finished-product CD for release.

Thanks for any tips!

-=glEnn=- · 29th September 2003

a second hand Digidesign 001 (24/48khz) with ProTools goes for around $300-500 these days, and is a pretty powerful system with good expandadabilty. While the A/D converters is not the greatest theyre defenitly usuable. Its possible to use it with Cubase if you want but when you get ProTools included with the system why would you

good luck
/mike

DaveJes1979 · 29th September 2003

I do appreciate the tip. Yeah, if I was a Digidesign guy, I'd probably go for it (although no one raves about the A/D, and besides it only has 2 channels). But, alas, I have made it a point to avoid all things ProFools...errr...ProTools.

Thanks anyway.

-=glEnn=- · 29th September 2003

2channels??? u mean only two micpreamps?

Digi001:
8channels A/D D/A
8channel ADAT I/O
2channel SPDIF I/O
so with expansion you can get 18 simultanious inputs and outputs..

have you checked out the old Motu828? they go pretty cheap too

/mike

toledo3 · 29th September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveJes1979
I do appreciate the tip. Yeah, if I was a Digidesign guy, I'd probably go for it (although no one raves about the A/D, and besides it only has 2 channels). But, alas, I have made it a point to avoid all things ProFools...errr...ProTools.

Thanks anyway.

Uh, you aren't in much of a position to slag pro tools. There are MANY reasons to, but it's not as if there are all these other DAW software packages that are so friggin perfect. Having owned logic, cubase, and cakewalk, I can affirm that the digi le packages are really every bit as good if not better. And the le converters are really better than the 888's which many a hit record has been made off of. Not a limitation, IMO.

Cubase sx is what, around $500~400? Same with logic and cakewalk. Now get a sound card and where does that put you at? Do some math.

But, I would say that the one really great deal out there on the cheap right now, software wise, is the Acid Pro 4 bundle. You might really want to consider that for a home type setup. Very versatile software. That and a m-audio card of choice would be a pretty good budget setup. Then get yourself a couple crown soundgrabber pzm's, a couple sm 57's, and a couple windscreens.

imacgreg · 29th September 2003

For $300 it seems like it might be hard to get anything that will work for you that will sound all that great. Why don't you take that money and go to a local studio and track your drums? I work at a great facility in Santa Barbara that 300-600 could buy you some good time in a fantastic room. You can transfer the files to your PC and go from there if you already have some sort of multitrack software. Sorry for the shameless plug, but it seems like you might as well go for some killer drum tracks instead of buying a cheap interface that you will outgrow. PM me if interested. Oh yeah, you could prolly rent a decent PT system for about that much.

Ian

dtobocman · 30th September 2003

Ian's smart. Don't spend $300-600 on crap that you'll outgrow immediately. Spend it on killer drum tracks recorded by pros. It seems like your goal is a musical one, judging by your post.

What were you going to use for mics and preamps, anyway? Even more crap? The final product from a pro studio will probably be 100 times better than what you could cobble together with your limited budget and knowledge of recording.

Save up your money and buy something of quality that will afford you some flexibility and will be of use for more than a few days. There's lots to learn and the most important parts might be what your witnessing when a pro AE records your drummer.

BTW, the Firewire based Firestation by Prosonus is flexible and sounds pretty good. Audio Interface, MIDI interface, 2 mic preamps, and stand alone AD/DA capabilities for about $600. Doesn't suck.

fishtop_records · 30th September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveJes1979

I would like to spend only $300 for this. I know M-Audio makes a 4-channel card for this much, but I have no idea about the quality. Are there any other ideas? I can be convinced to go as high as $600 if it is really worth it.

You can get a M-Audio 1010 for about $450 clean, used,
or a tad over $500 new. Only you can
decide if you want to buy only four channels of A/D
or get more so you can add real preamps
later on.

But, you might think carefully about recording the
tracks at a commercial studio. Get eight tracks
with real mics in a big room, and then lay in your
vocals and guitars. A couple of hours at $50 each
may end up cheaper in the long run.

Getting lots of channels of I/O and really
good mics and preamps is worth it.
I'm not convinced that going low buck is
really saving anything.
YMMV

davemc · 30th September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by dtobocman
Ian's smart. Don't spend $300-600 on crap that you'll outgrow immediately. Spend it on killer drum tracks recorded by pros. It seems like your goal is a musical one, judging by your post.

What were you going to use for mics and preamps, anyway? Even more crap? The final product from a pro studio will probably be 100 times better than what you could cobble together with your limited budget and knowledge of recording.

Save up your money and buy something of quality that will afford you some flexibility and will be of use for more than a few days. There's lots to learn and the most important parts might be what your witnessing when a pro AE records your drummer.

BTW, the Firewire based Firestation by Prosonus is flexible and sounds pretty good. Audio Interface, MIDI interface, 2 mic preamps, and stand alone AD/DA capabilities for about $600. Doesn't suck.

I have 2 drum only sessions coming in soon.
If your practised you should get out in half a day.
I have done this for a few people in the last few years.
Drums are one of the hardest thing to do at home.
You need a good room, mics and pres and convertors..

peterr · 30th September 2003

i am also reasonably poor and have been slowly building myself a good 2 track recording setup. When i want drums done I go to someone esle who really knows what they are doing and has good gear, experience and a nice big room. My wife won't let me put drums in the living room anyway.

take the advice above and get drums done by someone who knows what they are doing - spend your money on getting gear that you will keep forever.

DaveJes1979 · 3rd October 2003

Hmmmm...you all have made me rethink this.

Well, I certainly am NOT in any position creatively to do a 1/2 day drum session in any studio. My album is kind of only an EP-sized project right now, but it is a progressive "concept" project - in other words, there is constant restructuring of the songs. These are not 3.5 minute verse/chorus/bridge/verse chorus songs that I could chug out in a single studio session.

That being said, I think I will go ahead and record some "scratch" drums on the MOTU firewire box (828mk2) which will run me $750. The Cubase platform is already a given, so that won't add to the cost over a Digi-solution. Its 8 channel and looks pretty solid compared to the cheaper M-Audio type stuff.

When the time comes, and the structuring and creative production is all done, I'll see about replacing the scratch drums with some solid drum tracks recorded in a real studio. I might do the same thing for some of the vocals, as well as fine-tuning the mix and adding exotic ($$$) FX. In and out of the studio in 1-2 days if I do it right.

Jay Kahrs · 3rd October 2003

1-2 days for what? Just drums? Sure. To try and get drums, vocals and mix tweaks done in that amount of time is crazy. Not impossible but you'd be pretty rushed and the end result wouldn't be worth it IMHO.

fishtop_records · 3rd October 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
1-2 days for what? Just drums? Sure. To try and get drums, vocals and mix tweaks done in that amount of time is crazy. Not impossible but you'd be pretty rushed and the end result wouldn't be worth it IMHO.

Jay, I think you missed the start. The guy said he was broke and wanted to record drums. Which starts a discussion of buying mics, preamps, A/D convertors, etc. after you have a good drum recording space.

I suggested that as a low buck approach, you would
be better off recording the drumkit in a commercial
space, and then taking the tracks to your project
studio, adding in vocals, instruments, etc.

Of course doing more in a real studio would sound better.
But that isn't an option for someone starting out broke.

I find that I don't have the mic/preamps/rooms to have
success with Fletcher's three mic drumkit technique,
so I end up using 10 or so channels. That is a lot
of expense for a one time shot.

Jay Kahrs · 4th October 2003

I read the whole thread. My response was based on the last paragraph of the post before it. I got the feeling he wanted to go to a studio and do all that stuff in 2 days. I get people asking me to do that all the time and rushing around just ain't worth it. Most people have all they can do to setup and cut drums for 3-4 songs in a 10 hour day.

The key to minimal miking on drums (3 mics or less) is to have a great player followed by a good room. The gear is secondary to the source. YMWV on that. If the goal is to record drums just for a demo throw out a pair of mics. Something like a PZM and Beta 52 or D112 in the kick. That'll be good enough to get the basic idea down, might even be cool enough to use for a NIN-sytle thing in the final product. It's happened to me once or twice.

fishtop_records · 4th October 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs

The key to minimal miking on drums (3 mics or less) is to have a great player followed by a good room.

Sometimes even a great player in a pretty good room.
With a "average" drummer, your ten hours for three
tracks can become ten days.

Jay Kahrs · 4th October 2003

I don't let it get to be that bad. Most of the stuff I do works out to about a song a day by the time it's all done. If the drummer is that shitty then one of two things happens and it's mostly dictated by the band, I'll pull them aside and get their thoughts on the subpar skin smacker. Usually either I'll break out the Rolodex and call someone else in or I just deal with it and call it trash for cash. Either way, I'll be dammed if we spend 10 days getting the drums down for 3 songs. If that's your "average" drummer I'd hate to hear someone who's downright sucky.

fishtop_records · 4th October 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
If that's your "average" drummer ...

Average is such an interesting term.

I was using it like Brooks Robinson used it.
After he retired as a Hall of Fame third baseman
for the Orioles, he did radio and TV broadcasting.
In those days, the announcers were paid employees
of the team, so they couldn't say anything bad about
the players, team, manager, etc. When there was
a truely hiddious play, Brooks would say
"that was a very, very average play".

If your left foot is in a zero degree freezer,
and your right foot in a 150 degree pot of hot
water, are you, on average, a nice 75?

Jay Kahrs · 5th October 2003

Ah. I see. While I might sugarcoat things a bit to a band I've never seen the point in doing that to a producer or on here. What's the point? If it's shit then it's shit.

catfish11 · 11th October 2003

there is one thing you might consider, depending on you're music
what you need from drums, ect...
if you can get by w/ simple basic stuff and are willing to do some cut and paste you might consider prerecorded sample loops
spectrasonics comes to mind
300.00 gets lots of well recorded stuff to work with
there are others
check the cubase forum
keep this secret, don't let any of these studio guys know i told you this
by the way, i would have to agree w/ going to a studio if you want to record
i started w/ a omni studio/ delta 66 and got pretty good at it, but......
the product lacked
i think mainly because of the converters
i would advise against dfegad digi 001, mainly cuz the converters more or less suck even worse than the deltas
(i own protools hd, a different beast altogether)
the omni isn't bad and it does have 2 pretty good preamps,
it will also record at 96k which sounds better given the quality of the conversion
but there is a lot more to recording stuff than that - mics, room, ect. you would be hard pressed to get a good quality drum sound given your budget
samples loops can and do work for a lot of music
especially if you mix accordingly

toledo3 · 11th October 2003

Weird. I have worked on a delta 66, and never thought it was any better than the 001.

catfish11 · 12th October 2003

i'm sorry i did not mean to insinuate that the delta converters are any good, though some think they are
the preamps aren't bad, however, again for the $
there are no good converters for 300.00
however, they will record at 96k, so maybe they are just less bad
delta cards are available on ebay, cheap
but i reiterate, your end product will not sound like steely dan
i could care less about gear, who makes it, whatever
i own a 25,000.00 digi system
and quite frankly, i don't have any product loyalty whatever, nor does digi to me
it does a job, it does it o.k.
it could easily do it better but then digi wouldn't get to charge me for the next upgrade if it did it all, would they?

DaveJes1979 · 12th October 2003

For anything in the range of below $1000, I don't know that an A/B test of any A/D converters would yield great differences at 96khz. I think I trust MOTU more than the rest. Plus, their boxes just have good features and the layout and construction seems neater than the M-Audio stuff. Maybe I am wrong. Someone who has done some A/Bing can correct me. I think MOTU will be my best bang for buck.

toledo3 · 12th October 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveJes1979
For anything in the range of below $1000, I don't know that an A/B test of any A/D converters would yield great differences at 96khz. I think I trust MOTU more than the rest. Plus, their boxes just have good features and the layout and construction seems neater than the M-Audio stuff. Maybe I am wrong. Someone who has done some A/Bing can correct me. I think MOTU will be my best bang for buck.

Are you using p/c or mac? I have done some stuff with motu at people's home studios, and the pc/motu combinations always seem to be a little glitchy. That is just my experience though, I am sure you could get something good happening with a motu/pc combination.

I think the Motu 192 is probably a really good buy. How much are they running for these days?

Jay Kahrs · 14th October 2003

If your looking at Motu then the RME stuff is also worth considering.

DaveJes1979 · 14th October 2003

Hmmmmmm...or perhaps this thingy ?

Man, its hard to keep up with all of the toys that keep coming out.

29th September 2003	#1
DaveJes1979 Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 396 Thread Starter	Desperately poor - need to rec. drums! Help! I'm looking to record a standard drum kit on a PC/Cubase-based setup. I need to find a PCI interface card with descent-quality A/D converters (I know there are alot of junk 24/96 converters out there). I am hoping to be able to do this with only 4 tracks (my Mackie VLZ mixer only has 4 mic pres anyway). I have heard that one can effectively track drums even with this spartan track count - 2 overheads, 1 kick, 1 snare. I would like to spend only $300 for this. I know M-Audio makes a 4-channel card for this much, but I have no idea about the quality. Are there any other ideas? I can be convinced to go as high as $600 if it is really worth it. At the moment, this is just for doing demo recording, although I'd like to think that the A/D will be good enough that I can save at least some of the "takes" and material for use in the final project when I have a more complete studio setup and produce a finished-product CD for release. Thanks for any tips!

29th September 2003	#6
imacgreg Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Echo Park, Los Angeles Posts: 440	For $300 it seems like it might be hard to get anything that will work for you that will sound all that great. Why don't you take that money and go to a local studio and track your drums? I work at a great facility in Santa Barbara that 300-600 could buy you some good time in a fantastic room. You can transfer the files to your PC and go from there if you already have some sort of multitrack software. Sorry for the shameless plug, but it seems like you might as well go for some killer drum tracks instead of buying a cheap interface that you will outgrow. PM me if interested. Oh yeah, you could prolly rent a decent PT system for about that much. Ian __________________ ---------- Ian MacGregor http://twitter.com/#!/blackwatchsound www.standard-audio.com - Home of the Level-Or, 500 series Level-loc inspired limiter Visit Standard Audio on Facebook

30th September 2003	#7
dtobocman Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: los angeles Posts: 259	Ian's smart. Don't spend $300-600 on crap that you'll outgrow immediately. Spend it on killer drum tracks recorded by pros. It seems like your goal is a musical one, judging by your post. What were you going to use for mics and preamps, anyway? Even more crap? The final product from a pro studio will probably be 100 times better than what you could cobble together with your limited budget and knowledge of recording. Save up your money and buy something of quality that will afford you some flexibility and will be of use for more than a few days. There's lots to learn and the most important parts might be what your witnessing when a pro AE records your drummer. BTW, the Firewire based Firestation by Prosonus is flexible and sounds pretty good. Audio Interface, MIDI interface, 2 mic preamps, and stand alone AD/DA capabilities for about $600. Doesn't suck. __________________ David Tobocman www.VeryHelpfulSongs.com (Songs for Kids) Watch the music video to "Home"

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29th September 2003	#2
-=glEnn=- Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden Posts: 79	a second hand Digidesign 001 (24/48khz) with ProTools goes for around $300-500 these days, and is a pretty powerful system with good expandadabilty. While the A/D converters is not the greatest theyre defenitly usuable. Its possible to use it with Cubase if you want but when you get ProTools included with the system why would you good luck /mike

30th September 2003	#10
peterr Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Oz Posts: 87	i am also reasonably poor and have been slowly building myself a good 2 track recording setup. When i want drums done I go to someone esle who really knows what they are doing and has good gear, experience and a nice big room. My wife won't let me put drums in the living room anyway. take the advice above and get drums done by someone who knows what they are doing - spend your money on getting gear that you will keep forever.

3rd October 2003	#11
DaveJes1979 Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Camarillo, CA Posts: 396 Thread Starter	Hmmmm...you all have made me rethink this. Well, I certainly am NOT in any position creatively to do a 1/2 day drum session in any studio. My album is kind of only an EP-sized project right now, but it is a progressive "concept" project - in other words, there is constant restructuring of the songs. These are not 3.5 minute verse/chorus/bridge/verse chorus songs that I could chug out in a single studio session. That being said, I think I will go ahead and record some "scratch" drums on the MOTU firewire box (828mk2) which will run me $750. The Cubase platform is already a given, so that won't add to the cost over a Digi-solution. Its 8 channel and looks pretty solid compared to the cheaper M-Audio type stuff. When the time comes, and the structuring and creative production is all done, I'll see about replacing the scratch drums with some solid drum tracks recorded in a real studio. I might do the same thing for some of the vocals, as well as fine-tuning the mix and adding exotic ($$$) FX. In and out of the studio in 1-2 days if I do it right.

4th October 2003	#14
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898	I read the whole thread. My response was based on the last paragraph of the post before it. I got the feeling he wanted to go to a studio and do all that stuff in 2 days. I get people asking me to do that all the time and rushing around just ain't worth it. Most people have all they can do to setup and cut drums for 3-4 songs in a 10 hour day. The key to minimal miking on drums (3 mics or less) is to have a great player followed by a good room. The gear is secondary to the source. YMWV on that. If the goal is to record drums just for a demo throw out a pair of mics. Something like a PZM and Beta 52 or D112 in the kick. That'll be good enough to get the basic idea down, might even be cool enough to use for a NIN-sytle thing in the final product. It's happened to me once or twice.

5th October 2003	#18
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898	Ah. I see. While I might sugarcoat things a bit to a band I've never seen the point in doing that to a producer or on here. What's the point? If it's shit then it's shit.

11th October 2003	#19
catfish11 Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: maui, hi. USA Posts: 668	there is one thing you might consider, depending on you're music what you need from drums, ect... if you can get by w/ simple basic stuff and are willing to do some cut and paste you might consider prerecorded sample loops spectrasonics comes to mind 300.00 gets lots of well recorded stuff to work with there are others check the cubase forum keep this secret, don't let any of these studio guys know i told you this by the way, i would have to agree w/ going to a studio if you want to record i started w/ a omni studio/ delta 66 and got pretty good at it, but...... the product lacked i think mainly because of the converters i would advise against dfegad digi 001, mainly cuz the converters more or less suck even worse than the deltas (i own protools hd, a different beast altogether) the omni isn't bad and it does have 2 pretty good preamps, it will also record at 96k which sounds better given the quality of the conversion but there is a lot more to recording stuff than that - mics, room, ect. you would be hard pressed to get a good quality drum sound given your budget samples loops can and do work for a lot of music especially if you mix accordingly

11th October 2003	#20
toledo3 Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Funky Town FL Posts: 1,304	Weird. I have worked on a delta 66, and never thought it was any better than the 001.

12th October 2003	#21
catfish11 Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: maui, hi. USA Posts: 668	i'm sorry i did not mean to insinuate that the delta converters are any good, though some think they are the preamps aren't bad, however, again for the $ there are no good converters for 300.00 however, they will record at 96k, so maybe they are just less bad delta cards are available on ebay, cheap but i reiterate, your end product will not sound like steely dan i could care less about gear, who makes it, whatever i own a 25,000.00 digi system and quite frankly, i don't have any product loyalty whatever, nor does digi to me it does a job, it does it o.k. it could easily do it better but then digi wouldn't get to charge me for the next upgrade if it did it all, would they?

14th October 2003	#24
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898	If your looking at Motu then the RME stuff is also worth considering.