Can you Produce a "Hit Song" ?

[dreamsongs]

Let me pose another question to get a better understanding of where I'm going with this:

Have you ever presented a song to anybody in the business in it's raw form (guitar/piano & vocal) and had it rejected. Then, went back, produced it, worked on it and had it received or looked at more favorably ?

[mhartman]

Originally Posted by simonv

What about a turd?

Freeze first, then polish away. It should shine right up.

[lefthando]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Let me pose another question to get a better understanding of where I'm going with this:

Have you ever presented a song to anybody in the business in it's raw form (guitar/piano & vocal) and had it rejected. Then, went back, produced it, worked on it and had it received or looked at more favorably ?

Happens regularly.


Further, there is the matter of striking a balance between polishing, to help get the point across, vs. not overworking, when there is a chance the production will be rejected.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Let me pose another question to get a better understanding of where I'm going with this:

Have you ever presented a song to anybody in the business in it's raw form (guitar/piano & vocal) and had it rejected. Then, went back, produced it, worked on it and had it received or looked at more favorably ?

it really depends on who rejects or approves it, if they are inexperienced enough to need production.. to approve something, that´s not your fault.

producing a demo is a double edge sword. I would initially give them the raw track, unless ofcourse I feel that ¨my production¨is really REALLY bringing something to the table. Since like you mentioned earlier, i´m still very insecure about my production abilities.

could you post a before and after example of your music man ? just out of curiousity. Because with my stuff, if you listen to the raw track and the produced by me version, it´s basically the same song with other instruments.

[dreamsongs]

I'd love to once I figure out exactly how to do it...

[dreamsongs]

I am updating my Broadjam website, when I finish uploading my songs I will provide the link.

If I can post any song that accurately illustrates the difference between a raw version and a fully produced vesion I will try and do it...

[djwayne]

On the home studio vrs pro studio question....here's something else to consider....say you are a songwriter. Now over your lifetime, how many songs are you going to write ? Hundreds, thousands, ten ?? For arguements sake, let's say you write 200 songs over your life that are worth recording, and doing some production work to them. In a pro studio, you could very easily run up a tab of $1,000 per song, for 200 songs, that would add up to $200,000, so is a $10-40,000 investment in a home studio worth your time and effort ?? I think so.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by djwayne

On the home studio vrs pro studio question....here's something else to consider....say you are a songwriter. Now over your lifetime, how many songs are you going to write ? Hundreds, thousands, ten ?? For arguements sake, let's say you write 200 songs over your life that are worth recording, and doing some production work to them. In a pro studio, you could very easily run up a tab of $1,000 per song, for 200 songs, that would add up to $200,000, so is a $10-40,000 investment in a home studio worth your time and effort ?? I think so.

Ditto that...

My point exactly...

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I am updating my Broadjam website, when I finish uploading my songs I will provide the link.

If I can post any song that accurately illustrates the difference between a raw version and a fully produced vesion I will try and do it...

I was thinking about this alot over the last couple days man, and I do understand your point.. but then, i think of all the ¨acoustic versions¨ of famous songs, and i like them like that to. Even Sheryll Crows version of ¨sweet child of mine¨ is really cool, and it doesn´t even have the famous riff. A song is a song. One of my favorite probably top 3 bob marley songs is ¨redemption song¨, and it´s just him playing and singing along and it´s magic. So many songs I could name you like that. Paul McCartneys ¨yesterday¨, he has a little acoustic set in his latest concerts.. where he plays his songs ¨raw¨, and it´s amazing. You think the stones ¨angie¨would suffer without the piano and drums ?? i could go on and on about this...

but then you said ¨not so great songs¨, can they be improved ??? well.. if they are not as great to you why even bother ???

my songs may not be as great to many, but at the moment I wrote them i thought i was the shit! now I listen back and say.. eeh, whatever.. i´m no john lennon yet, so i move forward.. as a songwriter if I think I will improve something by production it´s like the good old saying, ¨i will fix it in the mix¨.. so no, I still don´t agree that a great production will do anything for a song.

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by djwayne

On the home studio vrs pro studio question....here's something else to consider....say you are a songwriter. Now over your lifetime, how many songs are you going to write ? Hundreds, thousands, ten ?? For arguements sake, let's say you write 200 songs over your life that are worth recording, and doing some production work to them. In a pro studio, you could very easily run up a tab of $1,000 per song, for 200 songs, that would add up to $200,000, so is a $10-40,000 investment in a home studio worth your time and effort ?? I think so.

Amen. Next time some motherf---er posts a "What's a cheap U47 clone for $1500?" or "Best Neve/Urei soundalike for under $500?" I'd like to take each letter of your post, make it into a brass knuckle and punch the mofo with it one letter at a time

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I was thinking about this alot over the last couple days man, and I do understand your point.. but then, i think of all the ¨acoustic versions¨ of famous songs, and i like them like that to. Even Sheryll Crows version of ¨sweet child of mine¨ is really cool, and it doesn´t even have the famous riff. A song is a song. One of my favorite probably top 3 bob marley songs is ¨redemption song¨, and it´s just him playing and singing along and it´s magic. So many songs I could name you like that. Paul McCartneys ¨yesterday¨, he has a little acoustic set in his latest concerts.. where he plays his songs ¨raw¨, and it´s amazing. You think the stones ¨angie¨would suffer without the piano and drums ?? i could go on and on about this...

My argument to that kind of thinking is a band like U2.

"Pride in the Name of Love" or "I Will Follow" or "Where The Streets Have No Name" or "With or Without You" would sound like complete shit as a "strummer in a coffeehouse".

[djwayne]

I think a great production does indeed help a song. Take for example, Peter Gabriel's song "In Your Eyes." He did a great production on the song and it became a hit, he did a slighlty different version on tour but still great. Now Nacy Wilson from Heart did an acoustic version of the song on her Live From McCabe's cd. It sounded great to me, but it did not become a big hit like Peter Gabriel's version.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by djwayne

On the home studio vrs pro studio question....here's something else to consider....say you are a songwriter. Now over your lifetime, how many songs are you going to write ? Hundreds, thousands, ten ?? For arguements sake, let's say you write 200 songs over your life that are worth recording, and doing some production work to them. In a pro studio, you could very easily run up a tab of $1,000 per song, for 200 songs, that would add up to $200,000, so is a $10-40,000 investment in a home studio worth your time and effort ?? I think so.

To consider your studio ¨high end¨ or ¨pro¨, I think you would need to invest something close to a million or much more.

[djwayne]

Another example is Eric Clapton. He's made a whole career of producing and polishing up songs that were orignally, just old blues songs done on a guitar.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Kestral

My argument to that kind of thinking is a band like U2.

"Pride in the Name of Love" or "I Will Follow" or "Where The Streets Have No Name" or "With or Without You" would sound like complete shit as a "strummer in a coffeehouse".

OK, now think this... which of the 4 you mentioned is the biggest hit ??? (not my favorite) but with or without you, is a waaaaaaay bigger hit than the other 3. Ask anyone in the street their favorite u2 song, and they will either say ¨one¨ or ¨with or without you¨, in absolutely every conversation i had with non U2 fans those are the 2 songs that come to their mind.

Both of those songs can be easily transformed into a acoustic set. EASY. The songs would be intact. Trust me. Unlike the other 3 you mentioned, which still could hold a raw production but not as quiet, because they don´t have the hit quality up there as the 2 i mentioned. Even if they are better songs to me.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by djwayne

Another example is Eric Clapton. He's made a whole career of producing and polishing up songs that were orignally, just old blues songs done on a guitar.

we are talking about mega hits. To me Eric Clapton .. has what.. umm 2 ?

[djwayne]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

To consider your studio ¨high end¨ or ¨pro¨, I think you would need to invest something close to a million or much more.

I don't think so. The market has changed considerably and what's important is the quality of sound, and there's some great sounding equipment available which you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for. If I was starting out fresh today, knowing what to buy and what not to buy, I could put together a damn good sounding home studio for $40,000. You have to remember, a home studio doesn't need 20-30 mics, a huge board....but still needs many various things.

As far as the guy who wants a good pre-amp for under $500, you have to remember not everybody has $40,000 to spend on any studio, they buy it one piece at a time, and build it over years, as their budget allows. But in the meantime, you still need something. Buy the high buck stuff AFTER you get some serious interest in your music, and you can write it off your taxes.

[djwayne]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

we are talking about mega hits. To me Eric Clapton .. has what.. umm 2 ?

Well, anybody who can sell out a 20,000 seat venue to me is mega. Trust me on this, Clapton is a mega star.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by djwayne

Well, anybody who can sell out a 20,000 seat venue to me is mega. Trust me on this, Clapton is a mega star.

didn´t say he was not a mega star, or has millions of fans. But trust me, out of those millions of fans who bought his records, the majority bought them for a couple of songs.

Just like Pink Floyd, one of my top 3 favorite bands.. has what 1 ? or 2 truly mega hits ? Money and Another brick in the wall part 2. Oh ,and wish you were here. that´s it.

[djwayne]

I suppose Cream was chopped liver ??

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by djwayne

I don't think so. The market has changed considerably and what's important is the quality of sound, and there's some great sounding equipment available which you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for. If I was starting out fresh today, knowing what to buy and what not to buy, I could put together a damn good sounding home studio for $40,000. You have to remember, a home studio doesn't need 20-30 mics, a huge board....but still needs many various things.

.

You know what pisses me off about these statements ??? is that you guys leave out the most important part of studio building, which is the ROOMS!!! Dude.. with 40k you can´t even buy the couches and chairs of a high end studio, much less the floors and walls, and ceilings, and designs.. you guys are something.

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

didn´t say he was not a mega star, or has millions of fans. But trust me, out of those millions of fans who bought his records, the majority bought them for a couple of songs.

Just like Pink Floyd, one of my top 3 favorite bands.. has what 1 ? or 2 truly mega hits ? Money and Another brick in the wall part 2. Oh ,and with you were here. that´s it.

Jose, I was going to start a thread asking people other than that "We don't need no education" song, does Pink Floyd have any good songs cause I flipped through their "Echoes" (Greatest Hits) album and I couldn't find f--k all to listen to.

On the other hand, I'm listening to Stevie Wonder's 4-disc box set right now and there isn't a crap song in the bunch.

[djwayne]

Even Led Zepplin was doing new productions of old acoustic blues songs....

[djwayne]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

You know what pisses me off about these statements ??? is that you guys leave out the most important part of studio building, which is the ROOMS!!! Dude.. with 40k you can´t even buy the couches and chairs of a high end studio, much less the floors and walls, and ceilings, and designs.. you guys are something.

Well, if your music is made from quality samples synths, and direct input recording, the "room" becomes less important. Yes you need a room big enough for whatever band or orchestra you are recording, but hey, The Cleveland Orchestra hasn't booked any time at my place, so what do I need a huge room for ??

Yes you can spend $1000's of dollars on couches and chairs, and yes couches and chairs are needed, and if you need to impress Joe Blow and the Blowettes, I suppose you need to have that. I don't.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by djwayne

Well, if your music is made from quality samples synths, and direct input recording, the "room" becomes less important. Yes you need a room big enough for whatever band or orchestra you are recording, but hey, The Cleveland Orchestra hasn't booked any time at my place, so what do I need a huge room for ??

Yes you can spend $1000's of dollars on couches and chairs, and yes couches and chairs are needed, and if you need to impress Joe Blow and the Blowettes, I suppose you need to have that. I don't.

Hey, I don´t need them either. By the way, I have nothing!! Not even 1 mic pre. I have a guitar that´s it.

I was just saying, there is a difference between high end (Pro) and a home studio, and the difference is very obvious sonically to.

Even though I´m young compared to the oldshcool people, i´m very oldschool when it comes to how to define a Pro studio.

[Kestral]

I agree with djwayne. This is my front end and what it could be purchased for at current market prices:

Neve 1073 - $4125 (at Sonic Circus)
Urei 1176 - $2800 (this is what the last Rev B on eBay sold for)
Apogee Rosetta 200 - $1800 at Sweetwater

Total: $8725 hmm... that sure is a lot less than a million bucks.

Rent/borrow a U47 (even if you buy one for $8800, that puts the budget still well below a million bucks), and other than drums (which I track in a big studio), I can track everything else at home and have a completely pro sound.

[djwayne]

Absolutely there's a huge difference between a pro studio and a home studio, but the home studio's quality is getting better with time, turning many of the old school studio's into white elephants. Who can afford it ?? Who can afford to record there ??

Some are still doing well, but many are struggling.

[djwayne]

Originally Posted by Kestral

I agree with djwayne. This is my front end and what it could be purchased for at current market prices:

Neve 1073 - $4125 (at Sonic Circus)
Urei 1176 - $2800 (this is what the last Rev B on eBay sold for)
Apogee Rosetta 200 - $1800 at Sweetwater

Total: $8725 hmm... that sure is a lot less than a million bucks.

Rent/borrow a U47 (even if you buy one for $8800, that puts the budget still well below a million bucks), and other than drums (which I track in a big studio), I can track everything else at home and have a completely pro sound.

Yep, add the cost of some good monitors, a good computer and a recording program such as Audition, and you're in business.

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by djwayne

Yep, add the cost of some good monitors, a good computer and a recording program such as Audition, and you're in business.

I got NS10's which I love for making music (for listening pleasure imo the Dynaudios have got to be the best sounding speakers out there). Computer programs? Logic Pro 7 and Pro Tools M-Powered 7. I have a 15" Powerbook right now but I've ordered a 15" MacBook Pro (top of the line model). Also have a few analog synths, my guitar rig and a Shure SM57. So I'm pretty much in business.

[confooshus]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Hey, I don´t need them either. By the way, I have nothing!! Not even 1 mic pre. I have a guitar that´s it.

I was just saying, there is a difference between high end (Pro) and a home studio, and the difference is very obvious sonically to.

Even though I´m young compared to the oldshcool people, i´m very oldschool when it comes to how to define a Pro studio.

Why does someone with no gear have over 3000 posts on this forum? You talk way too much. Here's a quote from an ancient book: "Even a fool is thought wise if he remains silent."