Can you Produce a "Hit Song" ?

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by kenkelly81

It's like we as musicians are touched with a disease renders our ability to hear like the rest of the non-music making world=masses null and viod.

You can't really and most likely never will.

KC

And this is why the non music making world is way HARDER to satisfy than us, yet people like to come in and say they can be manipulated, which is total bs.

Some of us even buy records because they sound great, and are well produced. Something that does not happen with the non music world.

[kenkelly81]

"Since when are we musicians or producers, better music critics than a truck driver or banker ?"

I'm saying that we are not better music critics then the general populous.

Not when it comes to mindless marketing tactics the repeatably work on them.

You have stated that they do not work on you thus proving my point.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by kenkelly81

"Since when are we musicians or producers, better music critics than a truck driver or banker ?"

I'm saying that we are not better music critics then the general populous.

Not when it comes to mindless marketing tactics the repeatably work on them.

You have stated that they do not work on you thus proving my point.

I don´t get it ??? if it doesn´t work on me why is joe shmoe down the street more vulnerable ?

It only works on him because he enjoys it!! just like guys like asian girls and I don´t dig them at all. You can´t manipulate taste. Some food you will like, some you wont, everything that has to do with taste cant be manipulated with marketing.

Dude you can give me carrot juice all day and I will never like it.

[kats]

So nobody is going to make me like something I don´t, to the extent of putting some money into it.

I believe you, but it's not about you. You're not representative of the buying masses.

[dreamsongs]

When I talk about production, it means creating a vibe/groove on an upbeat song or a mood with arrangements on a ballad etc... all of the above.

When I write a song on my guitar or piano and after I'm done and satisfied, then comes the hardest part. From that point on, I can turn it into something beutiful or I can f*** it up like I've done on some occassions.

What I'm saying is that the song (after it's completed) can take many forms and can go in many different directions according to your vision. The better your ability and sharper the vision to get that "hit sound" out of any song, the better your chances that it may become one.

I fight with myself on this concept after every finished song. Do I make it the way I like it or do I make it sound like something on the radio...

I can never be at peace with that, maybe because I don't like pop radio much these days and I'm tired of hearing the same songs played every 15 minutes. What's even worse is when your kids start singing songs that suck...it's marketing/brainwash at it's finest...

[kenkelly81]

Originally Posted by kats

I believe you, but it's not about you. You're not representative of the buying masses.

EXACTLY!

Thank You!

[jindrich]

Rap is ONLY production.

...and fancy dresses, lotsa gold chains, porsches, bad guyz, half naked girls, ghetto blasters, guns and baseball caps...

Yo, Yeah, Yo, Yeah, Yeah...


Just Imagine... Good vibrations (pun intended)

Originally Posted by kats

I believe you, but it's not about you. You're not representative of the buying masses.

The masses cannot be manipulated into liking something via marketing. That it can, is a MYTH. Guys Dont you all get sucked in like the rest of the world. Follow the NUMBERS, Look at the soundscan.. Just because you see it all over, doesnt mean millions are rushing out to buy it.

If marketing could sell anything, there would be no marketing flops

Look at the first week sales of well marketed artists and then look at the 3rd week's numbers. Sure marketing can create anticipation, but those numbers will surely fall off it the product doesnt deliver. If marketing were all it took, More people would be filthy rich.

Perhaps those records that hit that some here think are talentless only serve to prove that there are some here who dont know what a hit is when they hear it.

[kenkelly81]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

What's even worse is when your kids start singing songs that suck...it's marketing/brainwash at it's finest...

Now we're on to something here.

Freud would be proud of you.

When you encounter the dilemma you have just mentioned "To be or Not to Be" marketable ask yourself this do you want sell songs or do you want to be an artsy artist?

I believe you can be both.
But it will definitely help some if you sell a few songs first.

[dreamsongs]

These days, the buying public is restricted to the 12-29 age bracket. Mostly in the 12-17 age bracket. It's not like the old days anymore, people over 35-40 just don't buy CD's anymore...

Do you really think that a 12-13 year old kid knows or cares about melody/lyrics...I could go on, but the majority only want a catchy hook and a pretty face to go along with it...

The marketing thing is no bullshit, you can sell most anything to most people (not everyone) if you market it right. It's a numbers game...

How many people want to use the latest tennis shoe, or basketball shoe because Shaq or MJ or Agassi uses it. That's not marketing ??? If you invented a better quality shoe but couldn't sell it because you couldn't reach the masses like the big boys can, you would be pissed...wouldn't you ?

Music is no different, if you tell an uneducated somebody long enough that something is really good, then in their eyes, it must be good...

[Methlab]

I thought the phrase was "you can't polish a turd". But on this thread, I guess you can?

Another thing..yeah, you can get marketing dollars behind something and blow it up..but what determines which act gets those dollars? Well, believe it or not, that is still determined by the label process of internal promo. Meaning, an AR director or VP signs a band/act and during the pre and post of this process has to get the label excited about it. If the label is mehh on it, because it is an average song, then those marketing dollars will not be there and probably the ARs job won't be soon after.

people reference songs like macarena and dogs out and laffy taffy...but guess what? those songs are typical pop hits. this IS pop we are talking about right? yes, they are shit for most musicans to listen to, but they had huge catches and hooks to them that blew them up.

also, i still think a great idea has to precede great production. i scout for a label. i dont give a shit if a song is tracked on 1 mic in a room or in a studio with mad polishing. If I hear a killer vocal and a big hook I will hear it regardless of production. I also am a studio rat who is over the whole "glossy sound " too. I have heard song demos that sounded like ass, but I knew they were hits, and I was right. Yes, better production made the song more appealing to the masses, but when it comes down to hearing a well written hit song, a vocal and an acoustic guitar is all I really need to know if I want to pursue something.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

When I write a song on my guitar or piano and after I'm done and satisfied, then comes the hardest part. From that point on, I can turn it into something beutiful or I can f*** it up like I've done on some occassions.

What I'm saying is that the song (after it's completed) can take many forms and can go in many different directions according to your vision. The better your ability and sharper the vision to get that "hit sound" out of any song, the better your chances that it may become one.

I fight with myself on this concept after every finished song. Do I make it the way I like it or do I make it sound like something on the radio...

.

My personal opinion/advice is to always do what your heart tells you. NOTHING in my opinion sells better than honesty.

Don´t be so hard on yourself on production, It does take songs to a higher level I will not argue that. It makes everything more interesting, but unless you are totally wacko, you wont ruin a good song with production. I like to follow the less is more rule when producing.

[GregoryC]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

My point exactly...

Aside from working on my own material, I also work with other writers/artists. I know in my mind I can polish a turd or produce the shit out of an otherwise shit song. I do it all the time.

Sometimes I'll take a so-so song with only vocals and acoustic and show it to one of the Publishers I work with who advocates that "he can always tell a hit song". He rarely likes it in it's rare form. Then a few weeks later, I will bring him the "full blown produced version" sometimes with another title to throw him off and he will almost like it much better...he will go from - I don't think this is the one - to - I think we might have something here - What gives ?

I have done this with many songs in the past few years with people who say they can hear a "hit song" when they hear it. Mind you, I know good songs when I hear one, but the point is that if you take an average song and give it "The Treatment" you can certainly turn it into something...

A "full-blown production" allows those listening to hear it as it will be played on radio or whatever. It takes the guess work out of it. A "Hit Song" is only a popular song; good or bad.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

My personal opinion/advice is to always do what your heart tells you. NOTHING in my opinion sells better than honesty.

Don´t be so hard on yourself on production, It does take songs to a higher level I will not argue that. It makes everything more interesting, but unless you are totally wacko, you wont ruin a good song with production. I like to follow the less is more rule when producing.

I don't disagree with this...

But I have also seen demos from other songwriters attempting to produce a song that have no idea what they're doing. It sounded better before their "production attempts"...

I agree also with Metlab, and I've said this earlier that there has to be "something" there before you begin to even try to further any song along. Still, it is also true that you can also totally screw up a decent song with bad production. It works both ways...

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Do you really think that a 12-13 year old kid knows or cares about melody/lyrics...I could go on, but the majority only want a catchy hook and a pretty face to go along with it...

Don´t let yourself fall into this man. I think you are starting to believe that and that will affect your music. I sensed this on the previous post. Don´t try to sell out, it´s not worth it.

A great example that shuts down your statement is the new winner of american idol. He is 29 and looks 40.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I don't disagree with this...

But I have also seen demos from other songwriters attempting to produce a song that have no idea what they're doing. It sounded better before their "production attempts"...

I agree also with Metlab, and I've said this earlier that there has to be "something" there before you begin to even try to further any song along. Still, it is also true that you can also totally screw up a decent song with bad production. It works both ways...

Yes, the toughest part in production is knowing what not to do.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Don´t let yourself fall into this man. I think you are starting to believe that and that will affect your music. I sensed this on the previous post. Don´t try to sell out, it´s not worth it.

A great example that shuts down your statement is the new winner of american idol. He is 29 and looks 40.

That guy benefited because he was from a smaller town. The girl (katherine I think) was a better singer but she was from LA. They see great talent every day out there. That's what hurt her, but that's another thread...

If anything can be marketed and you can "MAKE" most people buy, then

Why did Michael Jackson not sell more recently (before molestation charges) than his previous records?

Why wasnt "New COKE" a hit?

I think you guys dont understand what makes a hit and you are thinking marketing can save just about anything. BULLSHIT.

Just because YOU think a song isnt a good song, doesnt mean it isnt

[djwayne]

"Eat Poop !! Twenty million flies can't be wrong !!"

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

If anything can be marketed and you can "MAKE" most people buy, then

Why did Michael Jackson not sell more recently (before molestation charges) than his previous records?

Why wasnt "New COKE" a hit?

I think you guys dont understand what makes a hit and you are thinking marketing can save just about anything. BULLSHIT.

Just because YOU think a song isnt a good song, doesnt mean it isnt

I've been writing for over 25 years, I happen to know what a good song is. That is not the point here...

And as I said, it's a numbers game. You obviously can't convince every single soul...

But, this is not specifically about marketing. It's about making something good with your producing chops that otherwise wouldn't have a chance...

[Methlab]

Originally Posted by djwayne

"Eat Poop !! Twenty million flies can't be wrong !!"

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

But, this is not specifically about marketing. It's about making something good with your producing chops that otherwise wouldn't have a chance...

Wouldn´t have a chance where ? are you talking A&R people ? record company´s ?? or the unbiased totaly neutral buying public ?? in other words are you talking about getting your foot in the major leagues ?

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Wouldn´t have a chance where ? are you talking A&R people ? record company´s ?? or the unbiased totaly neutral buying public ?? in other words are you talking about getting your foot in the major leagues ?

All of the above...it just wouldn't cut through all the filters...

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

All of the above...it just wouldn't cut through all the filters...

Production is your letter of presentation, the cover to judge the book. It has to be top notch to compete with other submissions. But it´s not what will convince the buying public to buy your record.

As a personal note...

It would be ridicoulus to blame my production abilities, for my lack of superstardum at this point in time. I would like to hire a super producer, to produce my songs, but that´s a personal dream of mine. I´m sure it would take my songs to a different level. Make them more appealing to the general public.. but if I suck, i suck and theres nothing to do about it.

[Volodia]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Rap is ONLY production.

If you can't tell a good rap from a bad one some people can . You probably don't buy rap .

Volodia

[Kestral]

Someone mentioned about rap. While I'm not the biggest fan of rap, there is one thing it is:

Rap is a vibe.

Just like Elvis wiggling his hips was a vibe.

Jim Morrison and his leather pants was a vibe.

Mick Jagger strutting like a rooster is a vibe.

U2 live is one hell of a vibe.

Music is a vibe.

Let's face it, at the end of the day, record companies are here to sell little plastic discs that oh yeah, happens to have some music on it.

If they could sell little plastic discs without music by painting red circles on them, they'd do it.

But a vibe, that's what people want. Vibe is a feeling. The key is to create a vibe that people can't do without/want more of.

Let's face it, "Drop it Like It's Hot" ain't Vivaldi's Four Seasons or Holst's The Planets. But it's a vibe. You know, when Wagner first came out with Ride of the Valkyries, with those menacing string trills, they said it wasn't music. But it was a vibe. And that's what it's all about.

As musicians, we can appreciate music in more technical ways, a great solo, cool chord changes, some killer licks and riffs. But give Joe Sixpack ACDC's "You Shook Me All Night Long" and he's satisfied. It's got the vibe.

What is vibe? Vibe is feelings, emotions. Music that has emotions that connect with the listener are powerful, especially when its emotions they want or are in sympathy with. U2 makes an entire career out of this. So does Eminem. Gwen Stefani creates vibe not just musically but through her fashion sense. It's all part and parcel of the same thing, whether it's a bass line or baggy pants.

So next time you're making music, think of the vibe.

[Jose Mrochek]

Mazel Tov, this is Kestral´s first great post : )

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Production is your letter of presentation, the cover to judge the book. It has to be top notch to compete with other submissions. But it´s not what will convince the buying public to buy your record.

As a personal note...

It would be ridicoulus to blame my production abilities, for my lack of superstardum at this point in time. I would like to hire a super producer, to produce my songs, but that´s a personal dream of mine. I´m sure it would take my songs to a different level. Make them more appealing to the general public.. but if I suck, i suck and theres nothing to do about it.

A good producer would make suggestions as to the writing and structure of the song. Not just bring in expensive gear and sounds to the session...

Maybe suggest you clean up the lyrics here and there, reverse the order of the verses, create a strong hook that was maybe lacking, substitute chords on some parts etc...

That's what I try to do with my clients and on my own songs. I don't know how well I'm doing this yet. Only time will tell...I try to get better at this every day because as I have improved my producing abilities thru the years, I have gotten a bit more successful.

Not even the best songwriters can churn out hit after hit. But thru good recording and production you can get further...that I'm sure of.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

A good producer would make suggestions as to the writing and structure of the song. Not just bring in expensive gear and sounds to the session...

ooooooh ok ok , 500 posts later I realize you ment the producer would get involved in the songwriting aswell. Then yes, ofcourse production can make a hit.

I´ve always seen the producer as what you described, but I thought you ment other things. Now yes, I totally agree with you.

[dreamsongs]

It all goes to the capacity and experience of the producer in question I suppose.

Also, there are some songs that "have to" be produced to some degree or else you can't showcase what the song is about. Mainly uptempo pop songs...

A ballad or slow tempo doesn't necessarily need that treatment but the melody and lyrics have to be that much better for the song to shine...