AIR Lyndhurst up for sale

[TonyD]

Shall we have a whip-round?

[johnnygri]

Count me in. I think I've got a few spare quid down the back of the sofa.

[psycho_monkey]

I'll have a word in Richard's ear and see if he'll knock £50 off the price....

[Barish]

That could be a nice little opportunity for Messrs. Narcoman & Co.

[muziekschuur]

The place is probably in need of maintenance (exterior is a very complex church...) and all stuff inside is used up. It needs a complete overhaul wich probably is way way more expensive then building new...

[bassjam]

Time to draw up some plans for a big liveroom?

[DITN]

Originally Posted by muziekschuur

The place is probably in need of maintenance (exterior is a very complex church...) and all stuff inside is used up. It needs a complete overhaul wich probably is way way more expensive then building new...

Uh, really? The place was utterly immaculate last time I was there. In and out.

[jampot]

Originally Posted by DITN

Uh, really? The place was utterly immaculate last time I was there. In and out.

Same, I was there in December.

[narcoman]

indeed. An overhaul would be overkill. It's a great studio with a lot of great people in and out of it.

[muziekschuur]

It's a dome church. If there is anything major (allthough looking neat) structural I can imagine that the numbers don't add up. I do agree that it is a one of a kind place. And hope someone else will step in.

I've been there and it is an awesome place to be. But a place like that usually needs a special person to keep it open...



Here you can see the outside of the church. As you can see it has a very complex structure. Sometimes leaks (allthough not noticed) can cause structural damage, wich can cause millions worth of costs...

I've been a scaffold builder. Sometimes you build scaffolds around churches. And when you reach the roof you usually see piles of stones with no cement in sight. Just loosely stacked. And prone to high winds those stones can become projectiles distroying the structure or any humans near.

Since loads of churches in Holland are now unused. Severall are now closed by cityhall because they may collapse due to neglect... I do hope this is not the case with Air studios. But I do know that it is a very expensive building to maintain structurally... Scaffolds alone will cost severall tons...

[taturana]

good time for Bono to step in after he cashes in on his facebook stocks...... e

[The Byre]

Before you dust off your cheque books lads, remember that the building is lease-hold, subject to being a listed building and also subject to strict covenants governing use and appearance.

[teo]

Lease-hold, the one thing in the UK I cannot get my head around...
It looked great when I was there a couple of years ago, but of course I wouldn't know about structural damage and falling stones...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by teo

Lease-hold, the one thing in the UK I cannot get my head around...
It looked great when I was there a couple of years ago, but of course I wouldn't know about structural damage and falling stones...

You have it in italy as well.

[teo]

LOL
Yes, but I didn't climb all the way to the roof or AIR Studios to see how the stones were doing...

[doorknocker]

Shouldn't this be posted in the 'Group Buys' sub-forum?

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by teo

Lease-hold, the one thing in the UK I cannot get my head around...

I never understood the logic of buying a leasehold - it seems to be specifically designed for people who are weak in the head. The longer you hold the asset, the less it is worth! Not really the sort of return any real-estate deal should give a sane person.

I understand the logic (in this case, for the Pentecostal Church) of selling a leasehold. You get almost as much as for freehold, but 99 years later, you get it all back again. AND if the purchaser sells it, or tries to change the use, you can cash in again.

[narcoman]

Cashflow. If your exit strategy is one of "make the short term and then split" then a lease is preferable. Less overhead - the lease value doesn't significantly decrease (they never decrease in London - and renewals are easy) and the rentals and initial purchase are cheaper than freehold (in the short term).

Other than that - its down to location and building desirability against lower asset value.

[teo]

Originally Posted by narcoman

You have it in italy as well.

Re-reading your post...
Did you mean we have lease-hold in Italy as well, or structural damage and falling stones?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by teo

Re-reading your post...
Did you mean we have lease-hold in Italy as well, or structural damage and falling stones?

hahah

both.

[teo]

Well, structural damage over here goes all the way up to the government...
Regarding lease-hold, nope, I'm quite sure we don't have anything like it. You buy a property, it's yours, end of the story.

[teo]

Originally Posted by teo

Re-reading your post...
Did you mean we have lease-hold in Italy as well, or structural damage and falling stones?

I just realized I made quite a bad joke, after the latest events in my country.
Did not mean to.
My apologies to fellow italian gearslutz.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by teo

Well, structural damage over here goes all the way up to the government...
Regarding lease-hold, nope, I'm quite sure we don't have anything like it. You buy a property, it's yours, end of the story.

no. You definitely have leases.Most business property is leased (as in the UK). The autostrada land is leased. And multiple floor apartments (since you cannot own the land be default) are leased.... you're talking about the equivalent of freeholds which is still the common way to by homes in the UK and Italy. But homes are not all properties. Businesses rarely own the freehold on any property they occupy for the opposite reasons as given by the Byre.

[The Byre]

Narcoman, you are confusing leases with leaseholds. The two are very different beasts!

Rent - a monthly (or other periodic) fee is paid for the use of something.

Lease - Rental of a property or good for a fixed period. For example, my use of Norton Antivirus for two years is technically a two-year leasing agreement.

Leasehold - the purchased right to occupy land or a building for a given length of time. A leasehold estate can be bought and sold on the open market. In the UK, it is customary that a fee is paid to the original owner when this happens and on sale of the lease, the lease may be extended to the original period, by virtue of an additional payment to the leaser.

Freehold - the unmitigated and unlimited ownership of buildings or land.

Air Lindhurst is (if my memory serves me rightly!) a 99-year leasehold and within the covenants of the lease, the leaser must agree to any changes of use or ownership.

London is lousy with leaseholds, as this has proven to be a magnificent way for old families and other bodies to sell off properties at almost full price and yet still be able to have that property return to full ownership after 99 years, or to just keep earning money from it. So I shall remain with my original judgement, that leaseholds are specifically designed for people who are weak in the head.

If you are in business and that business requires a building, you are in the real-estate business, like it or not! From a cash-flow point of view, a leasehold is almost exactly like a freehold and is not to be confused with a lease, in which a monthly or quarterly fee must be paid. The difference is, after 99 years (or whatever period you buy) you, or rather your heirs end up with Jack Squat!

I have never come across a leasehold anywhere other than in the UK. For example, in German, the word 'leasehold' is called a 'Pachtbesitz' (rental-ownership) but I just cannot find any reference to any contracts or laws governing such an animal.

So it would hardly surprise me if Italy too did not recognise leaseholds.

[narcoman]

ummmmm.


Eh? Then how am I leasing property in Cyprus, Portugal and Spain (i am the owner). How come the recording studios I work with in Italy are also under lease agreements - as in leasehold (the distinction is not a grand as you are painting it!!). Im also leaseholder of several flats in UK and Portugal; I pay small rents on the lease as well. To buy the freehold I'd have had to have bought the whole bock of flats AND paid for the land. The returns would not have justified this expense.

Germany - not too clear on this but I thought practically all businesses leased their buildings?

Right - to clarify

Leasehold is the term used to describe an exclusive right to use and occupy a piece of land to the exclusion of others, including the freeholder, for a fixed term. This interest is created by a document called a lease, which will also contain a number of other rights and obligations applicable throughout the term.
A lease is granted by the freeholder in exchange for a sum of money. At the end of the term, the lease comes to an end and the property reverts to the freeholder. The same applies to goods as agreed between the two parties... at the end of leasing a MAcbook, for example, the macbook returns to the owner; Apple. Finally - in a leasehold - you pay rent on the lease. The lease agreements on a number of flats I own , for example, all started as 999 (not 99) year leases. What happens after my death - I couldn't care less!!!

Oh - and the monies in terms of leasehold for business properties are much smaller than a freehold. Secondly - it is not legal to sell the freehold on a flat. A block of flats, yes. A single apartment - no - why? No one occupier of the land. And THAT is pan european. However - I'm discussing the practise of doing it in business....

There is no real difference B. A Lease is the legal transfer under which a leaseholder may grant occupancy to a user or tenant. Many businesses in Italy lease their property from a landlord in an agreement under a lease. I'm not saying it's as popular in other countries as here but to say it doesn't exist is not true. And to condemn those who leasehold as weak in the head is to not have understood some of the financial ramifications and comparisons one must make when planning a cash return on investment; not insignificantly location. There are many times when a leasehold makes more sense than a freehold - in purchasing flats (where there is no other legal method), for business use where location matters and there is no other option, to enjoy use of property at a rate that works with your business plan. The lease purchase on Air was fairly mighty - but the freehold would have been astronomical; trust me.... leaseholds make sense as a business in London under the right circumstances. Freehold purchases for some of my properties would have reduced my income BELOW the increase in equity.

Right - we're off topic.....

[teo]

Originally Posted by narcoman

no. You definitely have leases.Most business property is leased (as in the UK). The autostrada land is leased. And multiple floor apartments (since you cannot own the land be default) are leased.... you're talking about the equivalent of freeholds which is still the common way to by homes in the UK and Italy. But homes are not all properties. Businesses rarely own the freehold on any property they occupy for the opposite reasons as given by the Byre.

Well, if we leave out some cases like the autostrada (freeway, for the non italian speakers), all other business either own the property or rent. If they own it, it's their. No 99 years lease, renewal, anything. Even multiple floor apartments, you buy it and it's yours. I'm not sure legally what happens with the land underneath the building, but there's no other system than what you guys call freehold.
Anyway, it's all good. I could not understand it in the 3 years I lived in London, and probably won't understand it now.

[narcoman]

apartments - they're yours on leasehold in the UK. Its yours to do whatever you want with ..... but with a freehold - for example - you can knock the building down. Try doing that with an apartment..... . Business in Italy? I can tell you that McDonalds, for example, does not own any of its "restaurant" properties in Italy. They are all leasehold; they are not rented under equivalent rental tenancy agreements.


The bug problem Air has is this. When Boote et al bought it from Martin they had a sustainable plan for profit and making money. They still make money now. However - imagine doing a deal for purchasing the lease and business as a new venture. How is anyone going to sustain that as a returnable investment? The numbers don't work in this case. It would need a cash buyer who LOVES the studio because its not investable. Shame.



I draw your attention (again - we're off topic so I'll leave it after this) to this paragraph from a specific lease agreement from Italian commercial leases. I use the same firm for Portugal - but they have documents for each Euro territory ...

"
2. Describe any legal restrictions limiting the maximum term of a lease (including renewals).
Pursuant to Section 1573 of the Italian Civil Code, leases have a maximum term of 30 years.
3. Describe any laws requiring landlords to allow a tenant to renew its lease.
According to Italian Law no. 392/1978 leases for commercial, industrial, artisanal or touristic purposes shall have a minimum duration of 6 years and leases of hotels shall have a minimum duration of 9 years.
Upon expiry leases are automatically renewed for 6 or 9 years (respectively) unless the tenant or the landlord refuses the renewal. Please note that, upon expiry of the first 6-year period (or 9-year period, as the case may be), the landlord is allowed to refuse the renewal only in case the landlord intends:
a. to use the property as its residence or as residence of its relatives;
b. to use the property for the carrying out of commercial, industrial, artisanal, touristic or
hotel activities;
c. to pull down and re-build or completely renovate the property;
d. to renovate the property for the purposes of carrying out of commercial activities."

[The Byre]

You're still confusing lease and leasehold.

Lease is just a simple rental agreement, i.e. regular payments, but over a fixed period.

Leasehold sees no regular payment, but a single payment upfront.

The confusion I get to experience, comes from the fact that there can be a sliding scale of variations from rent to freehold and this can further be obfuscated by covenants on all types of property holdings. For example, I may place a covenant on my property here where I live, that at no time may it be used as security for a loan or mortgage, or that only a direct heir may hold the deeds, or that it is never used as a bicycle shop, or that no person convicted of a crime may dwell within, or that the studio must remain a studio for all time, or that the agricultural land must never be built upon. I have seen all these be placed in a covenant on all types of property, freehold, leasehold and others.

Many German businesses do indeed lease their properties (as do businesses all over the World) or they have a land-lease, in which they own the building, but not the land on which it is sitting (e.g. some of the banks in Frankfurt). But I have never experienced a UK-style leasehold purchase.

There is all the difference in the World between a lease with all kinds conditions, such as a factory, built and paid for by a manufacturer that has been 'given' the land by the local community for a nominal rent and over an unlimited period and a leasehold, in which, in theory at least, the holder of the leasehold can (unless covenants have been placed upon the property) do what the hell he or she wants to do. In theory, the leaseholder can knock the building down, though there is nearly always a separate agreement or covenant within the deeds that will prevent this.

As for the flat issue, the freehold purchase of a flat (apartment) can be done by a variety of instruments. The usual method is to buy shares in the building, which will include the land.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by narcoman

2. Describe any legal restrictions limiting the maximum term of a lease (including renewals).
Pursuant to Section 1573 of the Italian Civil Code, leases have a maximum term of 30 years.
3. Describe any laws requiring landlords to allow a tenant to renew its lease.
According to Italian Law no. 392/1978 leases for commercial, industrial, artisanal or touristic purposes shall have a minimum duration of 6 years and leases of hotels shall have a minimum duration of 9 years.
Upon expiry leases are automatically renewed for 6 or 9 years (respectively) unless the tenant or the landlord refuses the renewal. Please note that, upon expiry of the first 6-year period (or 9-year period, as the case may be), the landlord is allowed to refuse the renewal only in case the landlord intends:
a. to use the property as its residence or as residence of its relatives;
b. to use the property for the carrying out of commercial, industrial, artisanal, touristic or
hotel activities;
c. to pull down and re-build or completely renovate the property;
d. to renovate the property for the purposes of carrying out of commercial activities."

That covers the conditions of a typical leasing agreement and has nothing to do with the outright and full purchase of a leasehold.

You agree to a lease, but you BUY a leasehold.