pensados place:mix sounds thin with too hot levels too mix bus?

[bassman88]

I'll attempt to answer your question but i'd like to clarify i'm not a pro.

For the mix bus, I believe this is about setting a certain level of headroom for mastering.

As for recording levels, from my experience, it's always best to recording hot as long as it doesn't clip so that you better audio conversion (as opposed to boosting the track later on with a gain insert).

What works for me is recording it hot and then leveling down the faders later on during the mixing stage.

[BlackBackDrop]

Best thing to do is ask DP himself. The team are all on Facebook, drop him a message.

[MarkyGoldstein]

You should record at minus 12 to minus 20 db. That's not hot. In the box you can amplify it but keep it at minus 3 throughout your plugin chains..

[jeremyglover]

they are talking about meter levels not fader levels. you wont to keep well away from the red when tracking and mixing.

cheers, jeremy

[jeremyglover]

Originally Posted by BlackBackDrop

Best thing to do is ask DP himself. The team are all on Facebook, drop him a message.

well, maybe for such basics people can google it instead.
why waste their time with basics?
best to go to the pros with more advanced questions.

[musicmixer04]

thanks.

I was not thinking about headroom for mastering. or any basic level question when mixing

Lets put it another way.

You have a finished mix. then you take down the levels 6 db of every recorded track with the gain audiosuite plugin and all settings are exact same but the levels are now reduced overall. you take the level up on the master fader on the reduced level mix to compare the two mixes at same volume.what pensado said was because of pro tools software the mix with lower level, because the meters stays under 6dB from 0 on every channel, will result in a more open sounding mix.

There is nothing in the pro tools manual that support this. Just wanted to find out more about this. maby i schould drop them a message on facebook. good idea. thanks

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by bassman88

As for recording levels, from my experience, it's always best to recording hot as long as it doesn't clip so that you better audio conversion (as opposed to boosting the track later on with a gain insert).

What works for me is recording it hot and then leveling down the faders later on during the mixing stage.

this is kind of out of date thinking. Used to be true in the 16bit days, with 24bit recording you've got 144dB (well, not quite, but that's what a perfect converter would have) of dynamic range. Your ears only have 120dB-ish of dynamic range. So in theory, you could record everything 24dB below clipping, and if you turn it up loud enough to potentially be able to hear quantisation noise in the reverb tails, you'll be rendered deaf by the peaks.

In practice, leaving headroom of around 18dB (based on the practice of lining up DAWs with consoles so that -18dBFs = 0VU, again a nominal reference level) for steady signals, and a good 6dB of headroom for peaky sources, you'll be fine. The louder you record, the more you'll find yourself overloading plugins and having to turn things down pre plugins, or mixing with your faders so low you lose accuracy.

Of course, if a preamp sounds better hit hot, then record that source louder. Doesn't really matter, providing you don't clip, but risking clipping just to get hot tracking levels is pointless nowadays.

[Hyder boy]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

this is kind of out of date thinking. Used to be true in the 16bit days, with 24bit recording you've got 144dB (well, not quite, but that's what a perfect converter would have) of dynamic range. Your ears only have 120dB-ish of dynamic range. So in theory, you could record everything 24dB below clipping, and if you turn it up loud enough to potentially be able to hear quantisation noise in the reverb tails, you'll be rendered deaf by the peaks.

In practice, leaving headroom of around 18dB (based on the practice of lining up DAWs with consoles so that -18dBFs = 0VU, again a nominal reference level) for steady signals, and a good 6dB of headroom for peaky sources, you'll be fine. The louder you record, the more you'll find yourself overloading plugins and having to turn things down pre plugins, or mixing with your faders so low you lose accuracy.

Of course, if a preamp sounds better hit hot, then record that source louder. Doesn't really matter, providing you don't clip, but risking clipping just to get hot tracking levels is pointless nowadays.

Good answer, in reference to "peaky" sources, what would you say a good peak level for a snare is?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Hyder boy

Good answer, in reference to "peaky" sources, what would you say a good peak level for a snare is?

Whatever sounds good, but 6dB of headroom isn't a bad thing to aim for.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

thanks.

I was not thinking about headroom for mastering. or any basic level question when mixing

Lets put it another way.

You have a finished mix. then you take down the levels 6 db of every recorded track with the gain audiosuite plugin and all settings are exact same but the levels are now reduced overall. you take the level up on the master fader on the reduced level mix to compare the two mixes at same volume.what pensado said was because of pro tools software the mix with lower level, because the meters stays under 6dB from 0 on every channel, will result in a more open sounding mix.

There is nothing in the pro tools manual that support this. Just wanted to find out more about this. maby i schould drop them a message on facebook. good idea. thanks

This won't work - by processing the files, you'll affect levels hitting your plugins, and so your whole mix will change.

Doing a vca trim on the fader positions will create the effect you describe. On an ssl, it doesn't really do the same thing since the fader tracking isn't perfect; itb, it should be more accurate.

In theory, with floating point maths, there should be no change in sound. In practice, who knows? It's a very difficult thing to measure, so we're left with what people "think".

[Trev@Circle]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

Hi
I watched pensados place. And several guyes on the show agreed that too hot levels made the mix sound thin and lower levels made it open up. Can someone explain? Does it mean fader level or recording level. how is the best way to push the levels of the mix without sounding thin?

A long thread but worth the read:

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)

[PopularDemand]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

Hi
I watched pensados place. And several guyes on the show agreed that too hot levels made the mix sound thin and lower levels made it open up. Can someone explain? Does it mean fader level or recording level. how is the best way to push the levels of the mix without sounding thin?

Dave was talking about when we pin the needles and push analog console channels into the red you get good stuff happening. Especially on drums. But ITB that is one thing you cannot do. That process ITB leads to things getting more narrow and thinner. Or closing up.

That is one of the main techniques that cannot transfer over ITB for those of us who came up on analog consoles. Dave does much ITB on his show but mixes records on an SSL console in his room at Larrabee.

[uncle muscles]

Dave monitors pre fader. Not post. Durrrrr

[uncle muscles]

Does it really matter, as it's broadcast über low bandwidth over the web? O_o

[musicmixer04]

thanks for the link. I think I got a better grip on the concept. thanks again. appreciate all replies