Is there a way to add some more guts to plug in echos?

[herecomesyourman]

Hey James!

I've got a great trick for ya! But it's got a few steps!

If you've got Waves Platnium and possibly NLS...I would set up two AUX Sends (Stereo)

Make one your Verb and one your Delay.

Copy whatever main plugin EQ might be on your master bus to the first or second position slot on your inserts for both AUX tracks. Or if there isn't any digital EQ on your bus, make one that is the same for both tracks where you are cutting 250Hz and 800Hz a bit, while hi pass filtering where you like it and boosting 10K or 12K for some upper mid-range response.

This will make your digital verb and delay excite more in the freq ranges you want.

If it's the same EQ as your master I find the image is far less blurry overall because you're also sharing gain-staging.

If you own NLS by waves put your stereo channels on the first position and send them both to the same bus on the master bus plug, which you can drive the gain on (for harmonic saturation, making things a bit more 3D).

Put your Reverb / Delay in line after the EQ, then put a Maxx Volume after both plugs set up the same way. Compress your top and bottom end a little bit to make things feel less "Perfect".

If you want things grainier you can throw in those Puig-Tec clones here...and even add some noise at 50Hz or 60Hz to make thing feel less digital.

Then put a Stereo Imager (S1) on your Delay channel. Widen your delay slightly to taste.

Finally feed your delay bus into your sends on your Reverb Aux. To cause your verb to feel chaotic a bit like a real plate.


So your chains will look like this.


VERB AUX

INSERTS:
01. NLS CHANNEL (OPTIONAL, SHARING A BUS WITH THE DELAY)
02. EQ (CUT 250Hz and 800Hz a bit, while hi pass filtering where you like it and boosting 10K or 12K)
03. REVERB PLUG *Your choice*
04. MAXX VOLUME
05. Puig-Tec P1 Clone (Boosting 60Hz or 100Hz a bit and 10K, 12K, or 16K depending on how you like it. Maybe add noise)

SENDS:
DELAY BUS. (Add in as much as you want to taste.)


DELAY AUX

INSERTS:
01. NLS CHANNEL (OPTIONAL, SHARING A BUS WITH THE REVERB)
02. EQ (CUT 250Hz and 800Hz a bit, while hi pass filtering where you like it and boosting 10K or 12K)
03. DELAY PLUG *Your choice, I like H-Delay personally*
04. MAXX VOLUME
05. Puig-Tec P1 Clone (Boosting 60Hz or 100Hz a bit and 4K on the delay actually will deepen guitars depending on how you like it. Maybe add noise.)

06. STEREO IMAGER, widen to taste.


I know that's a lot of plugs in a chain but...it's giving me a lot of good results. Hope this helps.

- Cary Miller.

[herecomesyourman]

Man, sorry I haven't slept a lot recently, I had to keep editing that to get everything down! Should make things feel more Analog in the box or out of the box back through your desk. Cheers.

[KRStudio]

I like to use a compressor at about 2:1 before my delay and then another comp hitting harder after the delay. This can help thicken and/or distress your repeats.

Jeff

[Puffer Fish]

A trick I have always used on a board was to run the effects back in through a channel on the board and then use EQ to sculpt the sound--I always liked to roll off some of the highs to get rid of that brittle sound. That's just me. And that was more of a live setting trick, to be fair.

[Slikjmuzik]

I just throw a UAD Pulteq pro instance if i want to fatten it up. EQ to taste. Seems simple, but man does it work...also not as noisy as the real deal...

[James Lugo]

I'm gonna try some of the ideas here, thanks. I have that Puig-tec eq and the CLA comps, maybe nice to combine. Using the plugin echos are way easier for me, everything just locks to the tempo and I set the values and it all just opens with the session, nothing to recall.

So nobody using a console has seen a big difference using hardware echos vs plugs?

[Mertmo]

I use Massey's "tapehead" plug on my echo returns a lot. And I EQ and compress them pretty aggressively to give them grit most of the time.

I can't stand a timid echo return...

Tapehead works really well for this

[TurboJets]

Another plug you can use to fatten up and add grit to those delays is the inimitable Stillwell plug Bad Buss Mojo. Whew doggy it can add ballz and grit so beautifully.

[OlisBest]

A simple solution that works for me on vocals ... hardware slap delay and a plugin sync delay.

My hardware RE201 is set for a quick/dull slap (settings never change). This really thickens the track up. BPM sync'd delays are done via a plugin of your choice.

No recalls needed.

[malaclypse]

Put some decapitator on the echo. also, doesnt echoboy allow you to saturate it by messing the the gain knobs in the plugin? I dont have that plugin and I've only used it a couple times so I'm not too sure.

[MJ Heck]

Not sure if you are a UAD person, but I find their
Cooper Time Cube to be a stunning plug in.

All those good adjectives - heavy, dimensional, real, etc.

I haven't found anything like it color wise -
hands down my favorite delay.

MJH

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by KRStudio

I like to use a compressor at about 2:1 before my delay and then another comp hitting harder after the delay. This can help thicken and/or distress your repeats.

Jeff

Bingo, I just did that and it was so much better. More focused and meaty. Great tip and easy peasy.

I will try out some of the other tips this weekend.

[subspace]

Rock on a console? Check.
Hardware delays? Check.
Here's the bit that might be helpful, I set-up an aux in PT feeding a hardware output, which in turn fed an LXP-5. I wanted to use some late '80s chorused verb for some bit and knew that effect was in there so I just patched it up.
Next song I didn't need it, so I set the LXP-5 to bypass, but I left it 100% wet. So now the aux just fed through the LXP-5 converters for a short latency delay. I started trying plug-in delays on that aux send and the return had an early 90s grunge to it that no longer disappeared behind the original track. Worth a try if you've got some unused fx box kicking around.

[jude]

Originally Posted by James Lugo

So nobody using a console has seen a big difference using hardware echos vs plugs?

i use a lexicon Mx400 for my delays, thru a DDA console. i find i get a better, fuller echo by setting the mx400's feedback to 0% and instead using the aux send on the return channel to feed back into the Mx.

Works well for on the fly dub mixing

[KRStudio]

Glad that worked out for you!
I find most itb delays benefit from this.

[gogar]

MULT the output of the delay,

Leave one clean, and put a distortion-based something on the other.

Mix the yucky one in; It's like "parallel compression' for your delay return or something. Even better, bandpass it and move it around a bit.


When I do OTB I use a TC D2 and an H3500 for some delay stuff, because it's sitting right there and has lights on it, and that makes me think it sounds better.

[Aisle 6]

Hey James.
Try echofarm or telray for a dirtier delay or use echoboy and feed it into decapitation or some other harmonic control plug. Then automate how you feel you want the repeats to trail off.

[kalle74]

I almost invariably saturate / distort, and lo+hi-pass my echoes. Sometimes compress on the way in. Works like a charm.

[Karloff70]

If you can't get happy turning the glass roof down on the ITB delay with your SSL channel low pass filters (likely you won't....as they will just be un-glassy, but still gutless...) do get some hardware and leave the issue in the past. Why struggle with it on every mix?

A couple of Yamaha D1500's and a Sony D7 go a long way and cost near nothing now. You'll be smiling again.

I don't understand people saying to eq in order to lose the gutless thing. Doesn't everyone eq delay returns pretty extremely in any case? With an ITB delay in my experience that just gives you a gutless sound of a different shape.

If you send through an LXP-5, yeah that might do it, but what a pain in the arse, you might as well just get a delay box and just use it.

[henge]

Originally Posted by malaclypse

Put some decapitator on the echo. also, doesnt echoboy allow you to saturate it by messing the the gain knobs in the plugin? I dont have that plugin and I've only used it a couple times so I'm not too sure.

I'm sure your aware of this...but just in case. Echoboy can saturate and distort the taps from within itself. Just use the input and output knobs.
Also the queeked algo can be friggin' gritty!!
If above doesn't work, Decapitator or Devil Loc will grunge it up nice for you.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by henge

I'm sure your aware of this...but just in case. Echoboy can saturate and distort the taps from within itself. Just use the input and output knobs.
Also the queeked algo can be friggin' gritty!!
If above doesn't work, Decapitator or Devil Loc will grunge it up nice for you.

Yep. This is what i suspected. I've only been able to mess around with echoboy a couple of times so I wasn't sure.

[brockorama]

lots of great ideas....filterfreak is also a great part of that ST suite that dirtys up nice on an AUX for your delayed tracks...sometimes with decap and levels manually ridden...