Buss Compression to Glue Things Together vs Sounding Big

[Wayne]

Wow.
My impression then would be maybe just take a few steps back, simplify (like where you've sort of had to go back to anyway) to just building solid mixes in ways that work for you now w/o necessarily jumping into to two bus thing.

I know the main line is if you're going to go with a comp on the mix add it from the get go, but really (IMHO) there's something to be said for working up into a nice mix, or close to it before throwing that into it.
No doubt about it compression on mixed sources opens up quite a few more variables to juggle.

[Audible Assassin]

I'm not talking about compressing the master bus. I'm talking about sending chunks of tracks to buses and compressing them. Sub-mixes...

[Karloff70]

First thoughts are you are compressing either too much, too many things in a bus or with lacking compressor or any combination of the above.

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Gearslutz App

[Jeff D.]

I think that what you are doing is a good method to achieve modern loudness without squishing the life out of everything.

[Audible Assassin]

Originally Posted by Jeff D.

I think that what you are doing is a good method to achieve modern loudness without squishing the life out of everything.

This is what I mean... Is gluing things together using Bus compression a certain sound that people go for and is a more compressed tamer sound? I've found not using bus compression gets a bigger, punchier mix in which case I don't fully understand what the goal is in bus compression or "gluing things together." I guess I'm trying to figure out what that really means and why so many people do it.

I'm definately not overcompressing when I do it usually hitting the compressor at about 2-3 dB's 2-4 ratio slow attack fast release

[Scott003]

when mixing ITB (and to a lesser degree OTB), I run lots of parallel compression busses, gives thickness and size to IMHO

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Scott003

when mixing ITB (and to a lesser degree OTB), I run lots of parallel compression busses, gives thickness and size to IMHO

To my mind it is actually much easier to get sub group compression working well OTB, as many groups ITB easily turns into the 'closed plastic ball of death' sound. But YmmV

[TimS]

Lots of amazing sounding music was made before buss compression became SOP. You say you've been running everything into compression as a matter of course and removing it if it doesn't sound punchy enough - how about trying the opposite approach and only compressing something if it sounds like it needs it?

Part of the problem with having so many effects and processors at our disposal these days is the temptation to use them without having a good reason to do so. Just because you can compress everything multiple times, doesn't mean you should.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by TimS

Lots of amazing sounding music was made before buss compression became SOP. You say you've been running everything into compression as a matter of course and removing it if it doesn't sound punchy enough - how about trying the opposite approach and only compressing something if it sounds like it needs it?

Part of the problem with having so many effects and processors at our disposal these days is the temptation to use them without having a good reason to do so. Just because you can compress everything multiple times, doesn't mean you should.

hear hear

[TimS]

I'll add that another reason some people like to use buss compression on everything is because they're too lazy to ride the faders. It's easy to make everything "glue" and sit nice together if nothing has any dynamic range. It's a lot more work to manually adjust the volume to make certain instruments louder or softer where needed, but the end result is well worth it IMHO.

The same thing goes for EQ and de-essing, by the way: rather than use volume changes to bring guitars out of the way of the lead vocal, or manually remove some sibilance from a handful of troublesome words, people would rather cut a massive hole in the guitars and slap a de-esser on the vocal and call it a day. Of course, the guitars end up sounding smaller than they could be, and the vocal is missing some air and definition, but hey, the engineer saved a lot of time.

[RKrizman]

Sometimes I compress the drum bus and sometimes I don't. And sometimes I'll do parallel compression, with one aux using an extreme compression setting to widen the soundfield, and the other just normal, mixed to taste. With drum loops or samples I tend to not find compression necessary.

I don't know about this "gluing things together" idea. You simply need to establish the right volume relationships of the various elements to maximize the groove feel.

-R

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Sometimes I compress the drum bus and sometimes I don't. And sometimes I'll do parallel compression, with one aux using an extreme compression setting to widen the soundfield, and the other just normal, mixed to taste. With drum loops or samples I tend to not find compression necessary.

I don't know about this "gluing things together" idea. You simply need to establish the right volume relationships of the various elements to maximize the groove feel.

-R

But sometimes sticking a few things in a comp together is a bit like the difference between a real piano, where you hit a chord and all the strings beat/ring off each other and a sampled piano where the separate keys do not know of each other. Interaction. Don't know about glue, but I think of it as like strapping a rubber band across a few of them and watching them push each other out of the way as the rubber stretches around.........whether you always need that...debatable, but it does something.

[mikeg09]

I think when it come to buss compression, you should add a tiny bit just for a little glue but use it for the character and sound of it rather than using it to "fix" things. I use compression for control purposes. If it doesnt need to be controled, I dont use it. Automation is your best friend these days! Engineers back then couldnt do it unless they had an SSL I think. Thats what makes the DAW badass. Use it to your advantage.

If you can manage to get all the instruments banging in the mix, you shouldnt have to use a buss compresser. This method also helps to keep your music more modern and dymanic sounding.

Oh ya, and I love parallel compression!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by mikeg09

I use compression for control purposes. If it doesnt need to be controled, I dont use it.

You are missing out on most of compressions usefulness then. I think of compression mainly as a 'behaviour and tone inducer'. Sure, it can be a control tool too, but that's the boring part.

[mikeg09]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

You are missing out on most of compressions usefulness then. I think of compression mainly as a 'behaviour and tone inducer'. Sure, it can be a control tool too, but that's the boring part.

Oh trust me, I know. Mastering the attack, release, and ratio knobs are key but not everyone fully understands how to get the most out of that. The OP is saying that when he puts compression on the 2buss, it makes his mixes worse than it was before he put it on.

Im still learning about it too, im no pro by any meens but i think compression is an art within itself. If you dont know how to use it, its better to leave it off.

On this new song im working on Im using compression on the vocals because they needed it. Not the instruments because they sounded good already. Then a little 2buss compression and some limiting. The mix sounds sick. I still want to get an outboard compressor tho.

But understanding those knobs are the secret. Thats all im ganna say

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by mikeg09

If you dont know how to use it, its better to leave it off.

Only then you'll never learn how to use it, will you.....I say get your hands dirty and go through your cycle of overdoing it after finding it, just like with most other stuff in engineering techniques, and then it naturally scales back into some sort of balance at some point.

[mikeg09]

Oh and Im just saying I use it for control because im still learning compression. I do know you can do some tight stuff with compression but im just talking about the basics. Its better for the OP to use compression as a simple tool first before trying to use it for trying to make a buss sound better since there are more dynamics and harmonics going on in a buss. Better to just focus on individual instruments first in my opinion.

[mikeg09]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Only then you'll never learn how to use it, will you.....I say get your hands dirty and go through your cycle of overdoing it after finding it, just like with most other stuff in engineering techniques, and then it naturally scales back into some sort of balance at some point.

Yes I can agree to that!

[DaveE]

Originally Posted by Audible Assassin

I'm definately not overcompressing when I do it usually hitting the compressor at about 2-3 dB's 2-4 ratio slow attack fast release

This might be part of the problem. Everything is custom and needs to be dialed accordingly. Drums aren't always going to need the same atk+rel timing as keyboard pads for instance.

[PopularDemand]

I think compression is seen as the "magic" bullet these days. Many on GS seem to use it only because they read on a forum that they should use it without really knowing how to. Back in the LFC/2" days I barely used any compression, never buss compression, and always left the mixbuss empty.

I'm mostly ITB/Hybrid nowadays and am still reluctant to use much compression except for transient shaping and light control. Very rarely do I use it on the mixbuss. It's very easy ITB to overdue it and shrink/narrow/muddy things if you are not careful.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

But sometimes sticking a few things in a comp together is a bit like the difference between a real piano, where you hit a chord and all the strings beat/ring off each other and a sampled piano where the separate keys do not know of each other. Interaction. Don't know about glue, but I think of it as like strapping a rubber band across a few of them and watching them push each other out of the way as the rubber stretches around.........whether you always need that...debatable, but it does something.

I absolutely agree. Sometimes, however, the glue is already in the arrangement and tracking, where the instruments know about each other and play off each other. There can be a delicacy of interplay at times that can be obscured by compression. The space between the notes has its own musical quality that needs to be honored.

Like all things, use it when it's appropriate. Not always an easy thing to determine without experimentation. But like everything, the earlier in the recording process you get everything working together properly the better.

I like the rubber band analogy.

-R

[mikeg09]

Think about compression like a condom. If the condom is too loose, the sex wont feel good and it probably wont work properly and slip off. If it is too tight, your man stick might explode from it being squashed. You want to find a condom that is a little tight but stretchy at the same time so the sex feels more realistic.

Too much compression, and you squash all the dynamics and make everything sound mushy. Too little compression, you have stuff jumping all over the place. So to me compression is always necessary at least a little bit whether on individual channels, busses, or both. I know different engineers use it differently so the best thing to do is experiment and find out what works best for you.

[StringBean]

The general principle with buss compression is to just "kiss the needle." Your GR meter should only occasionally flicker to -1 at the loudest parts. My guess is you are overdoing it and this will flatten your mix very quickly. The original buss compressors on the SSL were barely pushed in this way and that provided the "glue" without killing your mix.

[TimS]

Originally Posted by mikeg09

Think about compression like a condom. If the condom is too loose, the sex wont feel good and it probably wont work properly and slip off. If it is too tight, your man stick might explode from it being squashed. You want to find a condom that is a little tight but stretchy at the same time so the sex feels more realistic.

But it'll still never feel as good as it does without.

[sage691]

To the OP: Congrats dude, you're using you ears instead of just copying what you read somewhere.

Bussing drums has always sounded really bad to me. Now for paralell comp, that's a whole different thang.

IME insert compression is king, but I'm OTB using good hardware on a nice console. I'll use an 1176 on the kick, a mc77 on snare, and then I'll bus all that (plus OHs, toms, room mics, etc.) out into a Urei 1178 for the parallel bus.

Bringing up the 1178 in the mix will create the "glue", which is pretty much a fatness/weight to the whole drum kit you don't get without it -- not really louder at all, just thicker and more rounded/meaty sounding.

But if the kick and snare did not still have their own channels on the desk (outside the bus) then IME the sound will be weak, thin, wimpy & lame by comparison.

2bus comp is a whole nother animal entirely. I've tried many, and to my ears the Red 3 is what i was looking for. With 1 db of GR and makeup gain set VERY low (to the point where your 2bus meters are basically the same whether engaged or bypassed) there is a distinct difference it makes. The mix becomes more 3d, wider & more open sounding when engaged; and even a novice can clearly hear it.

Guess that's why CLA likes it so much on his 2bus.

[mikeg09]

Originally Posted by TimS

But it'll still never feel as good as it does without.

Hahaha nice one! You are right about that!

[mikeg09]

Originally Posted by sage691

To the OP: Congrats dude, you're using you ears instead of just copying what you read somewhere.

Bussing drums has always sounded really bad to me. Now for paralell comp, that's a whole different thang.

IME insert compression is king, but I'm OTB using good hardware on a nice console. I'll use an 1176 on the kick, a mc77 on snare, and then I'll bus all that (plus OHs, toms, room mics, etc.) out into a Urei 1178 for the parallel bus.

Bringing up the 1178 in the mix will create the "glue", which is pretty much a fatness/weight to the whole drum kit you don't get without it -- not really louder at all, just thicker and more rounded/meaty sounding.

But if the kick and snare did not still have their own channels on the desk (outside the bus) then IME the sound will be weak, thin, wimpy & lame by comparison.

2bus comp is a whole nother animal entirely. I've tried many, and to my ears the Red 3 is what i was looking for. With 1 db of GR and makeup gain set VERY low (to the point where your 2bus meters are basically the same whether engaged or bypassed) there is a distinct difference it makes. The mix becomes more 3d, wider & more open sounding when engaged; and even a novice can clearly hear it.

Guess that's why CLA likes it so much on his 2bus.

I agree with you. I’ve herd buss and 2 buss compression with hardware is better as opposed to software. Am I wrong to say that you can reek more of the benefits using hardware compression on 2buss compared to plugins? Maybe if your mixing completely ITB, it would be better to use less compression as possible since that analogue compressor magic hasn’t fully been achieved with plugins yet??? Correct me if im wrong but that is what I have always herd?

This new song Im working on I made ITB sounds badass but I think if I had some hardware compressors it would be a little better.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

But sometimes sticking a few things in a comp together is a bit like the difference between a real piano, where you hit a chord and all the strings beat/ring off each other and a sampled piano where the separate keys do not know of each other. Interaction. Don't know about glue, but I think of it as like strapping a rubber band across a few of them and watching them push each other out of the way as the rubber stretches around.........whether you always need that...debatable, but it does something.

this is the best advice in the thread IMO.

bus compression controls overall level, but magnifies interaction and motion between instruments.

or, more accurately, any compressor does that, even when only on a single instrument. compress a vocal and you'll control the level but magnify the frequency variance from note to note.

when Andy Wallace slams his SSL, nothing about that is tame

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I absolutely agree. Sometimes, however, the glue is already in the arrangement and tracking, where the instruments know about each other and play off each other. There can be a delicacy of interplay at times that can be obscured by compression. The space between the notes has its own musical quality that needs to be honored.

Like all things, use it when it's appropriate. Not always an easy thing to determine without experimentation. But like everything, the earlier in the recording process you get everything working together properly the better.

I like the rubber band analogy.

-R

Very true points indeed! For some reason I got thinking about electronic sources as I was blabbing about 'behaviour' and such, which they specifically need all the help they can get with, but as you described with 'real instruments' played with a proper touch, question and answering each other you could just as easily ruin the interplay that's there already if not careful.