60s style bass tips?

[stubenbaines]

I was wondering if anyone had any gear or recording tips for getting a 60s style bass tone. I record now to a 1/2" 8 track Otari 5050. I have a Mixdown Classic 8 board, and my only pre is a M610.

For bass I record using an Ampeg B12 tube amp. I mic the amp with an EV 666 and also run out direct. I blend the two. Basses are usually Fender Jazz basses. On mix, I'll use a DBX 160 compressor.

The bass tones are OK, but I find they are a bit too big and wide. I love 60s recordings and I find that the bass is warm, but also focused sounding. I would site the bass sounds on Stax. Knock on Wood by Eddie Floyd is a great example. The bass is full and warm, but you can hear each note.

On my recordings, you'd hear the bass, but it would be less focused sounding and not as focused. I know the player has to do with it, but I do work with some really good players, so I know they aren't sloppy.

Anyway, any suggestions on how I could a more 60s bass sound? (Also, I'd like things to stay with that warm focused sound, I'm not looking to make the bass bright, like someone who would slap and pop).

Thanks,
Dennis

http://silentstereorecords.blogspot.com

[Dave Martin]

It's in the player and the instrument. Back in the day, flat wound strings were about the only thing available, so that's what were on the basses.

Duck Dunn played a P Bass on all of that Stax stuff, and I think that David Hood did too, on the Muscle Shoals records of the same era. I'm getting a 'vintage' sould bass sound that I've been very pleased with from a '54 re-issue P Bass with Flatounds; you can kinda hear what I'm talking about by going to http://www.myspace.com/vickiecarrico

Those bass tracks, by the way, were the '54 P Bass into an Evil Twin and a Tube Tech CL-1B. (Less than 2 dB of gain reduction on the compressor.

[usamike]

Flatwound strings!!!!! Hollow bass is nice too, but the flatwound strings are a must.

[allencollins]

get a fender p-bass and find the oldest crustiest rustest set of strings
Take the bass knob on your amp and turn it all the way up
Take the treble knob on your amp and turn it all the way down.

Grab a screwdriver or similar device and puncture your speaker
Find the oldest set of tubes (unmatched of course) and replace
them with the tubes in your amp that sound good.

that's it!

[stubenbaines]

Thanks Dave. Yep, that's the bass sound. Thanks for forwarding that myspace URL. The tracks sounded great.

I'll pick up some flatwounds. I actually do have a friend who only plays flatwounds and I kind of dismissed him for it, but looks like he's right.

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by allencollins

get a fender p-bass and find the oldest crustiest rustest set of strings
Take the bass knob on your amp and turn it all the way up
Take the treble knob on your amp and turn it all the way down.

Grab a screwdriver or similar device and puncture your speaker
Find the oldest set of tubes (unmatched of course) and replace
them with the tubes in your amp that sound good.

that's it!

Umm... I've met a number of the bassists who played on soul records in the 1960's - Bob Babbitt, Jimmy Johnson, Mike Leach, Carole Kaye and others, and talked to the engineers who recorded a bunch of the music in Detroit, Memphis, Muscle Shoals and Nashville - none of these musicians seem to have taken your approach.

Maybe they just didn't know...

[Kestral]

I got one word for you: Hofner

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Umm... I've met a number of the bassists who played on soul records in the 1960's - Bob Babbitt, Jimmy Johnson, Mike Leach, Carole Kaye and others, and talked to the engineers who recorded a bunch of the music in Detroit, Memphis, Muscle Shoals and Nashville - none of these musicians seem to have taken your approach.

Maybe they just didn't know...

I thought Jimmy Johnson was a guitar player?
anyway I was joking but I do think 99% of 60's
bass sounds are mud. Except for Entwislte and a select few
maybe it's that ric he played that made it not muddy.

Id name drop a few famous people but I don't
know any

[softwareguy]

IMHO, the reason that the flatwounds are key for getting a defined sound, is that they simply don't put out high frequency information. That SOUNDS backwards, but actually, it allows you to turn down the bass on the amp, turn up the treble, and still keep that 60's vibe. Instead of having to roll off the top, which makes it muddy, you can "fight" the natural darkness of the strings to get more focus, which BTW, is exactly what the guys in the 60's were doing if their sound lacked focus.

The flats should get you there, but if they don't work try tapewounds. Even more plucky/thuddy vibe.

[thenoodle]

.........Knock on Wood by Eddie Floyd is a great example. The bass is full and warm, but you can hear each note.....

Which is partially due to air....the brass/keyboards/guitar are pretty much in and out...leaving the drums and bass as the constant...which equals air...which equals big ....and focus.

[dissolva]

Donald "Duck" Dunn on the Stax stuff: '58 P-Bass, La Bella Flatwounds, Ampeg B-15 Portaflex with the Bass on 5 and Treble full up.

[Brian Middleton]

Originally Posted by allencollins

I thought Jimmy Johnson was a guitar player?
anyway I was joking but I do think 99% of 60's
bass sounds are mud. Except for Entwislte and a select few
maybe it's that ric he played that made it not muddy.

I think there's a bit of a US-UK divide about bass sound in the 60s. Many of the British Invasion records had bass sounds that really were on the muddy side (especially the Stones and Kinks)...but the classic American 60's bass tone was a clean tube sound, usually flatpicked, and though warm, very clear. Check out Joe Osborne on "Dedicated to the One I Love," Carol Kaye on "Good Vibrations," Chip Douglas on "Pleasant Valley Sunday"....or James Jamerson on "Bernadette" (a little thicker tone than the LA players, but still tight and well-defined). That's 60's bass tone to me. And it ain't muddy.

[Bassline]

Something else that was pretty common in the 60s was to take a bit of foam or a chunk of sponge and wedge it under the strings between the pick up and the bridge. Motown bass players were pretty infamous for doing this. It will cut down on the sustain (but not kill it all the way) and make the basslines sound more punchy and precise. Just play around with the placement of the foam, closer the the bridge it will sustain more, and closer to the pickup and it will sustain less. This technique paired with a good PBass and Portaflex amp and you should be in business.

[airmate]

la-2a might be helpful for the "thump" attack! thumbsup

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by softwareguy

The flats should get you there, but if they don't work try tapewounds. Even more plucky/thuddy vibe.

It's been ages since I had flatwounds on any of my basses, but I just put nylon tapewounds (LaBella 760N) on my fretless and they've got WAY more trebly twang than any flatwound I ever used. Big deep upright (contrabass) type bottom end, but plenty of treble too.

Then again, my fretless bass has EMG active pickups, which is totally contraindicated for achieving "vintage" 60's era bass tone, so take that observation w/ a grain of salt. I'm sure an old P Bass, or a Hofner, or a Vox Apollo, or a Hagstrom, or Ampeg, or (etc etc etc) strung up with either flat- or tapewound strings will get you a lot of the way towards that vibe.

Sounds like the OP is doing nearly everything else right (amp, mic, & preamp choice), so if the instrument & the strings don't get you towards your goal, you know what's left...

[tINY]

Don't discount a dose of parametric EQ.

A lot of those 60's bass lines had a good bump at 100-150Hz and not much low frequency below that. A lot of that had to do with the little low-power amps they used with the ported speakers tuned higher than we do today. That gave them a bit more clarity in the dance halls.....



-tINY

[softwareguy]

On my PBass with passive Fralins the tapewounds actually take the sound in a Hofner-ish direction compared to regular flats or bright flats. Lots of low thud, but also a dull plucky quality in the mids. EMG's (which I had before the Fralin's) are such a different deal. I think that they really emphasize those "plucky" frequencies on tape wounds and put the sound in a totally different place. Actives seem to emphasize the attack so much more to my ears.

[Bimini]

I have had good experience using a Pultec EQ playing with the 100 boost. Flatwounds made a BIG difference too.

[David Brown]

I second the P-bass and Ampeg B-15. I have that set-up and it will get you very close.

David Brown

[js1]

Something else you might want to try is to stick some dampening material under the strings by the bridge (like a cut up strip of sponge). In the "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" DVD, you can see a dampening strip on Bob Babbitt's bass.

Bridge cover plates (remember those??) on P Basses used to have a strip of rubber in them to damp the strings.

js

[baikonour]

Pyramid flatwound strings, palm mute technique or foam damper is cool . Lots of player used a plectrum too...

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by baikonour

Pyramid flatwound strings, palm mute technique or foam damper is cool . Lots of player used a plectrum too...

Carole Kaye, did, at least. Duck Dunn didn't, and neither did Babbitt or Jamerson. But a lot of the 60's R&B records (including the early Motown) used upright bass, not electric...

[Bimini]

Originally Posted by js1

Something else you might want to try is to stick some dampening material under the strings by the bridge (like a cut up strip of sponge). In the "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" DVD, you can see a dampening strip on Bob Babbitt's bass.

Bridge cover plates (remember those??) on P Basses used to have a strip of rubber in them to damp the strings.

js

My Gibson EB0 has a dampening thing on the bridge. Nice effect sometimes.

[stubenbaines]

Thanks for the tips. I already have the B-15 Portaflex (i mis-typed it as B-12 in my original post). I'll borrow my friend's bass with the flatwounds and try the eq boost at 100Hz.

Dave, that's cool you've met Jimmy Johnson, Mike Leach, and Carol Kaye. All of them I would list as my top players. I play guitar and Jimmy Johnson is one of my favorites. That's a whole other thread about what set up he used.

Dennis

http://silentstereorecords.blogspot.com

[pete.veloski]

plus 1 on the sponge under the strings,
its practically free and it'll give you the sound you're looking for, also try miking the smallest bass amp you can find

[Dean Roddey]

Definitely flatwounds will give you that nothing but low end sound. Add to that not much sustain (the sponge) and a more active, percussive playing style, a la Jamerson, and that's a lot of it. But flatwounds really feel wierd to someone who has always played roundwounds. They are so smooth feeling, it's kind of freaky.

[TurboJets]

IMHO I feel so much of it has to do with the palm muting technique Carol Kaye talks about so much. She mentioned alot of guys just put a piece of foam under (or around) the strings at the bridge to achieve the same effect. Personally, I put a piece of foam under the strings at the bridge and it comes off sounding very focused and very 60's.

To boot, I also plug in to a 60's Tandberg Model 12, an all-tube open reel deck, and mic the speakers. Sounds awesome IMO.

[uncle duncan]

If you're talking late 60's you all need to burn one before rolling tape. And you need to hang the 'Tree of Life' bedspread on the wall or ceiling of the tracking room. And you need to loosen the drum heads so they all sound like baby farts.

[basstracker7769]

Another thing to keep in mind alot of the warm tone also came from basses that were bigger bodied instruments from that era. I love the playabilty of my Pilot Mid 80s Bass with the active EMG pickups, but for that low end tone Nothing beats the heavy wood of a older Electric bass.
I have this old Ibanez bass called a Black EAGLE BASS FROM 1977.
Based on a Jazz bass pickup wise its incredibly heavy wood body creates a low end woody tone that cant be equaled with active pickups and lighter modern day basses
These instruments are a bitch to play on stage for hours but in the studio they might be the ticket for getting that low end full bass sound u crave.
Pair one with a B15 ampeg amp and its the ticket for pulling out that 1960s bass sound

[vernier]

60's bass rules ...Buffalo Springfield comes to mind.

YouTube - On The Way Home- Buffalo Springfield- 1967
'