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Tube vs Tranny preamp...describe the difference in color/texture
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Shannon Adkins
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Tube vs Tranny preamp...describe the difference in color/texture

I know both types can deliver color. My interface is a MR816 and it's pres are neutral/sparkly, which work great on ballads when I have my crooner voice on. Looking for something to use on a strident vocal in a rock mix.

Been looking at...
Solo 610
GAP Pre-73
ISA One
GR ME-1NV

Mics it will be paired with are...
AT4060
SM7b
SM58 & 57
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Let me rephrase that a bit. I'm not looking for something to cure stridency (that can be done with technique and EQ). I'm looking for color. I only mention the stridency because I want to avoid anything "hard" sounding that might make it worse.
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Tranny pre-op?

Oh, tranny preamp.

Oops! (I couldn't resist )
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LOL!!

In a word: Harmonics. Tubes generate even harmonics which sound warmer, more 'musical', whereas transistors render odd harmonics which sound shrill & grainy. Current silicon based op amps & such have greatly overcome these characteristics, however there are valid reasons to carry on a purist's approach towards tube gear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analok View Post
LOL!!

In a word: Harmonics. Tubes generate even harmonics which sound warmer, more 'musical', whereas transistors render odd harmonics which sound shrill & grainy. Current silicon based op amps & such have greatly overcome these characteristics, however there are valid reasons to carry on a purist's approach towards tube gear.
That is not true.
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One thing I can say is I have had the 610 and pre73, an with the sm7 I found the pre73 to do much better. The sm7-610 combo to me always sounded pretty woolly to me, for lack of a better way of putting it
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Sm7b sounds nice through a GR.....
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I thought most tube pres have tranny inside.
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Is it just me or are some of us here confusing transformers and transistors? I believe the slang term "tranny" (when used within the context of electronics) usually means "transformer", so discussing the differences in their tonal impact on audio is not per se a debate of tube vs. solid state.
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Very, very broadly speaking, both tubes and transformers may add "harmonics", and generally the tube harmonics are perceived more in the higher frequencies, whilst the tranny harmonics are perceived more in the lower frequencies. But of course this is extremely variable depending on equipment and source.
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My Mercury M72 is beige and faintly rough. The RCA BA-31 is grey and smooth. The ULN8 pres are black and disappear into the rack giving no reason to touch them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
My interface is a MR816 and it's pres are neutral/sparkly, which work great on ballads when I have my crooner voice on.
If I can assume your built in preamps sound like the ones on my FF800 (which may or may not be a safe assumption) just about anything will sound better.

I could be way off base, but I think you are looking for quality, not color.

I have seen improved tracks compared to my FF800 preamps with all of the following combinations:

SCA N72 + SM7
SCA A12 + AKG 414
RNP + RNLA + SM7
RNP + RNLA + RE20
Great River + SM7
Joe Meek VC1 + AKG 414

I would suggest you concentrate on quality over color. You will get more color from mic choice and placement in my opinion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Very, very broadly speaking, both tubes and transformers may add "harmonics", and generally the tube harmonics are perceived more in the higher frequencies, whilst the tranny harmonics are perceived more in the lower frequencies. But of course this is extremely variable depending on equipment and source.
Thanks edva....that helps!
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Originally Posted by Paradox Uncr8ted View Post
From an engineers perspective, tubes generate a lot of 2nd order harmonics. You can drive them quite a bit, and the only distortion will be prominent 2nd order. It sounds like very smooth fast compression. I think that is why bluesguitarists etc, like them. That they sound warm must be components somewhere else I think. If you listen to early tubegear, they sound actually cold. 2nd order does that.

Warm though, is typically transistor sound, and 3rd overtone.

If you know synths, tb303 (not warm, diodes) vs Moog (warm, transistor) is a good example of that.

From what I am reading, people seem to describe things differently. Therefore I start this post with "from an engineers perspective".

If anyone finds tubes to sound "warm", maybe odd tubes does exist, or you simply have a different experience of things than me.

From what I have heard, moogs where critisised for the same reason, and that is why Roland used diodes in some of their products.

Warm mic sound, is typically 3rd overtone.

1930-40s radios use valves, and often have a pleasant sound to many.

I also remember my parents had one of those, on their summerhouse. Big cabinet style radio. I do remember liking that as a child, lol. Vivid. However compared to a lot of 3rd order stuff, I can`t typically remember the third. The second though, indeed. Seems to remind me of it.
Ofcourse there is not just valves involved. Harmonics can be added several places here. So it sounded "vivid".

I can also mention that a gearsalesman who I once used his studio, I played a track for him, and he said "how did you get that mic sound, that you shouldn`t change!" And I couldn`t quite remember, and looked at the vocal track, and there was Logics Overdrive. Lol, he was appalled. But I told him the drive was at 0. It was just there to get some vintage mic sound. And it did work, didn`t it. So I don`t buy into all this hype, with this or that. Just get a good linear mic, headset, speakers, amps whatever. And then you can add the processing you want. Ofcourse if you are a die-hard analog freak, that must have exactly the sonic fingerprint of some vintage gear, do that. I would never do that myself though.
Very interesting info! I'm not an analog purest by any means. I've just not had experience with colored pres and would like to get some.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdier View Post
If I can assume your built in preamps sound like the ones on my FF800 (which may or may not be a safe assumption) just about anything will sound better.
Don't know the FF800 at all. But there are a few people around here that own both and say the MR816 preamps are much better.
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Quote:
From an engineers perspective, tubes generate a lot of 2nd order harmonics. You can drive them quite a bit, and the only distortion will be prominent 2nd order. It sounds like very smooth fast compression. I think that is why bluesguitarists etc, like them. That they sound warm must be components somewhere else I think. If you listen to early tubegear, they sound actually cold. 2nd order does that.

Warm though, is typically transistor sound, and 3rd overtone.

If you know synths, tb303 (not warm, diodes) vs Moog (warm, transistor) is a good example of that.

From what I am reading, people seem to describe things differently. Therefore I start this post with "from an engineers perspective".

If anyone finds tubes to sound "warm", maybe odd tubes does exist, or you simply have a different experience of things than me.

From what I have heard, moogs where critisised for the same reason, and that is why Roland used diodes in some of their products.

Warm mic sound, is typically 3rd overtone.

1930-40s radios use valves, and often have a pleasant sound to many.

I also remember my parents had one of those, on their summerhouse. Big cabinet style radio. I do remember liking that as a child, lol. Vivid. However compared to a lot of 3rd order stuff, I can`t typically remember the third. The second though, indeed. Seems to remind me of it.
Ofcourse there is not just valves involved. Harmonics can be added several places here. So it sounded "vivid".

I can also mention that a gearsalesman who I once used his studio, I played a track for him, and he said "how did you get that mic sound, that you shouldn`t change!" And I couldn`t quite remember, and looked at the vocal track, and there was Logics Overdrive. Lol, he was appalled. But I told him the drive was at 0. It was just there to get some vintage mic sound. And it did work, didn`t it. So I don`t buy into all this hype, with this or that. Just get a good linear mic, headset, speakers, amps whatever. And then you can add the processing you want. Ofcourse if you are a die-hard analog freak, that must have exactly the sonic fingerprint of some vintage gear, do that. I would never do that myself though.
Not that it matters much for the story by itself (and thanks for posting), but 2nd harmonic is 1st overtone, 3rd harmonic is 2nd overtone etc.



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From Sweetwater-
It's safe to say that both tube and solid-state preamps - when properly designed - exhibit low distortion throughout their normal amplitude range. The difference in sound becomes evident when the circuits run out of headroom. Solid-state devices tend to abruptly transition from low distortion to extreme distortion (clipping). This is actually a good thing because, when operated right up to their maximum level (generally a higher level than a tube circuit), solid-state preamps can maintain excellent performance.

It's the nature of the distortion that makes the two types sound different. Solid-state circuits run out of headroom when the output voltage exceeds the power supply voltage. The result is gross distortion - the output becomes a square wave. Square waves are not sounds that we normally usually consider musical, so our subjective response to them is negative.

When a tube circuit distorts, the primary distortion product is even order harmonics, with the second harmonic dominant. It so happens that musical instruments also produce primarily even harmonics. By definition, that's what makes them "musical." So you could say that tube circuits can add a musical component to recorded sound. Fortunately, you can take your choice - keep the level reasonable and obtain good clean audio, or run the circuit into distortion and generate some harmonics that weren't there to begin with.

In circumstances when the preamps aren't being driven into distortion, it's reasonable to say that tube circuits always generate a certain degree of harmonic distortion, simply as a result of the way they work. Some tubes, specifically triodes, also exhibit a form of low pass filtering attributed to the "Miller Effect" - the charging and discharging of the plate-to-grid capacitance as the input signal changes. These factors are a large part of what is often described as "tube warmth," and we - meaning most musicians, recording engineers and the listening public - have basically agreed that this is a pleasant sound. Solid-state circuits, with relatively low distortion and no inherent low pass filtering, might actually provide a more accurate capture of the sound, but this is often perceived as "thin" or "sterile" in contrast to tubes.

So we're really saying that we like tube distortion to a certain degree, even in vocals and other critical recording situations. And many solid-state preamps actually incorporate circuitry that attempts to recreate tube-style distortion. And the message for you, the recordist in search of a preamp, is to use your ears and choose what sounds best to you
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Hey man, i thought i'd post my reply here.

The 816x preamps are fairly decent. Ive used them on multiple occassions, and they do a fine job of not deteriating the audio.

Looking further, they don't compete with my external pre-amps in terms of accuracy and detail. By this, i mean both the sound of the unit, but also its transient response.

The 816x pre amps don't have the same translation of transients as my external, so for mixes with fewer instrumentation, they don't always translate as natural. I can only describe it as a fairly slow compressed sort of soundm which you may think would be desirable, but it's not really. It just doesnt sound great. In context to a multitrack mix, this effect is less pronounced.

In terms of sound, they dont have the same weight as those with transformers, nor do they have the non-linear changes in response when driven at different levels. This helps to create different amounts of colouration on each track, which you don't get with the onboard pre-amps. The difference a pre-amp makes is entirely different for each microphone as well. On my 414/Kiwi, i can hear less difference than with my lower end microphones (SE 2200a, AT4033a etc), because the sonic qualities of the mic's are very nice, whereas the lower end ones see a huge benefit from the extra input stages. My 2200a actually sounds pretty incredible through the ISA One, whereas it sounds like a bag of *** through the MR816x (as does the SM57), but the Kiwi sounds great through either.

I've just ordered myself a Daking Mic Pre One which will arrive within the next few days. I will post clips from a session i'll be doing on wednesday evening on electric guitar if you want to hear it. The drums and bass will be going through the MR816x, so it should have some kind of context.

My opinions are that mic pre's are quite overrated. I would love to own various different ones in order to cover many styles, but its a very expensive hobby and very quickly becomes more subjective than scientific. I would however, recommend getting a single decent mic pre such as the ISA One or similar and then not worrying too much about anything else, unless you desire a drastically different colour.

I do however believe in getting as much analogue mojo into your recordings as you can do before it hits the converter, because every little bit helps to create something that has a nice sonic quality. It means your less dependant on plugins to try and enhance it afterward.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox Uncr8ted View Post
I think hendyamps post, Vintage Gear PICTURES! describes and demonstrates the sound very well.

He makes it sound nice, for the genre that he is doing.
krheatman: That is what you call warm?

I think it sounds quite coolish though. I once recorded some stuff to a vintage reel machine, and it sounded what I`d call "warm". Not something I use, but interesting to know, for general knowledge of trends.
Sorry i just did a quick cut and paste off Sweetwaters site.Thought it summed it up pretty well and is my experience with tubes as well.I use tube mics mainly though for vocals etc because they do tend to have more warmth,which too me is low mids.Every tube exudes it's own character though and every circuit,discrete or otherwise,is different also.Class "A" or "AB", some with transformers on the output and input,some without.

The main thing that affects any amplified circuit the most though is output transformers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoria89 View Post
Hey man, i thought i'd post my reply here.

The 816x preamps are fairly decent. Ive used them on multiple occassions, and they do a fine job of not deteriating the audio.

Looking further, they don't compete with my external pre-amps in terms of accuracy and detail. By this, i mean both the sound of the unit, but also its transient response.

The 816x pre amps don't have the same translation of transients as my external, so for mixes with fewer instrumentation, they don't always translate as natural. I can only describe it as a fairly slow compressed sort of soundm which you may think would be desirable, but it's not really. It just doesnt sound great. In context to a multitrack mix, this effect is less pronounced.

In terms of sound, they dont have the same weight as those with transformers, nor do they have the non-linear changes in response when driven at different levels. This helps to create different amounts of colouration on each track, which you don't get with the onboard pre-amps. The difference a pre-amp makes is entirely different for each microphone as well. On my 414/Kiwi, i can hear less difference than with my lower end microphones (SE 2200a, AT4033a etc), because the sonic qualities of the mic's are very nice, whereas the lower end ones see a huge benefit from the extra input stages. My 2200a actually sounds pretty incredible through the ISA One, whereas it sounds like a bag of *** through the MR816x (as does the SM57), but the Kiwi sounds great through either.

I've just ordered myself a Daking Mic Pre One which will arrive within the next few days. I will post clips from a session i'll be doing on wednesday evening on electric guitar if you want to hear it. The drums and bass will be going through the MR816x, so it should have some kind of context.

My opinions are that mic pre's are quite overrated. I would love to own various different ones in order to cover many styles, but its a very expensive hobby and very quickly becomes more subjective than scientific. I would however, recommend getting a single decent mic pre such as the ISA One or similar and then not worrying too much about anything else, unless you desire a drastically different colour.

I do however believe in getting as much analogue mojo into your recordings as you can do before it hits the converter, because every little bit helps to create something that has a nice sonic quality. It means your less dependant on plugins to try and enhance it afterward.
Thanks a bunch for the reply!!!! This was so helpful coming from an MR816 owner!
Do you agree with those who say that running external pres through the MR's pres with the pad causes no coloration?
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Originally Posted by euphoria89 View Post
The 816x preamps are fairly decent. Ive used them on multiple occassions, and they do a fine job of not deteriating the audio.
That's a good way to put it. They are utilitarian and reasonably clean as long as you don't push them too hot. I wish the pads on the 816 pres had more gain reduction. I run outboard pres into the 816's and get very good results.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
Thanks a bunch for the reply!!!! This was so helpful coming from an MR816 owner!
Do you agree with those who say that running external pres through the MR's pres with the pad causes no coloration?
Yeah, my external pre's still as great with the pad engaged. I've no issues running them through them.
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it's all about slew rate
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Great to hear, everyone!

hmm.....
I guess now what I have to decide is whether I even want a "colored" pre like the 610, or upgrade my MR pres with a neutral one like the ISA or Daking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
Sorry i just did a quick cut and paste off Sweetwaters site.Thought it summed it up pretty well and is my experience with tubes as well.I use tube mics mainly though for vocals etc because they do tend to have more warmth,which too me is low mids.Every tube exudes it's own character though and every circuit,discrete or otherwise,is different also.Class "A" or "AB", some with transformers on the output and input,some without.

The main thing that affects any amplified circuit the most though is output transformers.
It was very informative. Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
Great to hear, everyone!

hmm.....
I guess now what I have to decide is whether I even want a "colored" pre like the 610, or upgrade my MR pres with a neutral one like the ISA or Daking.
I generally add three classes:

Clean - P-SOLO, DAVBG etc
Inbetween - ISA ONE, DAKING
Coloured - 610, GAP73, GR etc

Usually the coloured ones have tube or dual stage input/output transformers, whereas the ones inbetween tend to have the input transformer, but an alternative balanced active output. I've not heard much in the way of external clean pre-amps, but i know they are quite well regarded when you need real super clean and quiet solutions. The biggest difference will be to get something quite coloured, such as the Solo 610.

I will let you know about my thought regarding the Daking next week.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
I know both types can deliver color. My interface is a MR816 and it's pres are neutral/sparkly, which work great on ballads when I have my crooner voice on. Looking for something to use on a strident vocal in a rock mix.

Been looking at...
Solo 610
GAP Pre-73
ISA One
GR ME-1NV

Mics it will be paired with are...
AT4060
SM7b
SM58 & 57
I recently bought a Sebatron VMP400e 4-ch tube pre. I would encourage you to look into Sebatron. Very high build quality, value and excellent customer service. It really sounds nice. You get a little compression and hf roll of that is very flattering. Can be very subtle or very thick depending on how hard you drive it. May be what you are looking for without spending a fortune.
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Here's an idea: get an APA lunchbox and a Radial PowerPre and you'll be on budget and have some 500-series rack spaces remaining to grow. For avoiding "stridency" don't forget about mic choice. You can check out microphone frequency responses at Microphone Database | RecordingHacks.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins View Post
I know both types can deliver color. My interface is a MR816 and it's pres are neutral/sparkly, which work great on ballads when I have my crooner voice on. Looking for something to use on a strident vocal in a rock mix.

Been looking at...
Solo 610
GAP Pre-73
ISA One
GR ME-1NV

Mics it will be paired with are...
AT4060
SM7b
SM58 & 57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoria89 View Post
I generally add three classes:

Clean - P-SOLO, DAVBG etc
Inbetween - ISA ONE, DAKING
Coloured - 610, GAP73, GR etc

Usually the coloured ones have tube or dual stage input/output transformers, whereas the ones inbetween tend to have the input transformer, but an alternative balanced active output. I've not heard much in the way of external clean pre-amps, but i know they are quite well regarded when you need real super clean and quiet solutions. The biggest difference will be to get something quite coloured, such as the Solo 610.

I will let you know about my thought regarding the Daking next week.
We were just using the shadow hills gama with 4 pres on a project in nashville a couple weeks ago,they sound great with a lot of vesatility in transformers.Expensive though.
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Shannon, IMHO you'd have a blast with the UA710, since you're into experimenting with different vocal/pre chains. That may be an eventual purchase for Yours Truly FWIW.

Chris
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