De-essing

mac black · 22nd September 2003

Junst wondering, how do you de-ess your vocals?
My chain is :
gate , 1176(sometimes) , exciter , eq , limiter , de-esser.( extra eq&comp if needed).
So basically i like to de-ess at the end of the chain. is that a good positioning for it or should i de-ess earlier in the chain?
Also , i like the air from dolby A on vox(u know what i mean) any ideas how to fake it with plugins?

Thanks

Mac

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by mac black
Junst wondering, how do you de-ess your vocals?
My chain is :
gate , 1176(sometimes) , exciter , eq , limiter , de-esser.( extra eq&comp if needed).
So basically i like to de-ess at the end of the chain. is that a good positioning for it or should i de-ess earlier in the chain?
Also , i like the air from dolby A on vox(u know what i mean) any ideas how to fake it with plugins?

Thanks

Mac

Isn't it better to use the Desser earlier in the chain so you can compensate for its effect later on down?

Unless you are using it as an effect.

The only plug i noticed that can give decent air to vocals is the Massenberg EQ plug. I still prefer the real one(analog) for this, but in a pinch it works pretty well.

By the way, why do you have a gate before the 1176? Is this for an effect also?

I've done this on drums(kicks and snares-Drawmer DS201) but never on a vocal.

e-cue · 22nd September 2003

From an SSL point of view:

Step #1: Mult the vocal track (or track in question, works nicely on Hi Hats as well, but try not to limit your use of this technique) next to your vocal track, but make sure it isn't the same number of any group send in use because you'll be using your direct outputs of the console.

Step #2: Hit the CR button, which puts the eq into the channel. Filter off all the lows, even cutting lows, and boost as much as you can from 6k - 9k depending on the track in question. (Is it esses? tsks? pisses? male vocal? female? a cher transexual? etc...)

Step #3: Hit the MON button in your dynamics section. Compress with the fastest attack and release times (put up on the release knob and leave it turned full counter clockwise). Set your ratio to infinity. Your threshold should sit nice around -10 or so, again, depending on the material.

Step #4: This one depends on the console you are on. Press the DIRECT, FLOAT, and READY GROUP buttons and lift the group knob to solo iso the channel. If you are on a 9000, take off LF Mix (so the large fader doesn't go to the 2 mix) and hit the LF ISO to isolate the solo of the channel.

Step #5: Hit the "LINK" button of the left of the 2 channels. It doesn't matter which track is on which side, which can make finding a channel that doesn't share a group send number a little easier.

Step #6: Automate the large fader on the channel you hit all the buttons on as your threshold. If you are on the 9000 series, don't let the release time LED's fool you. It shouldn't really matter because your release times should be as short as possible, but if for some reason you did a 1 sec release, the LED's DO NOT represent a 1 sec release time. (never understood that LED release thing myself). This can provide a very specfic and effective Dess without sounding unatural.

The Waves Desser (the new one) blows away the DBX902's IMO. Also, you can automate the threshold like the above technique which is my preference.

dave-G · 22nd September 2003

99% of the time, I'll de-ess early in the chain, so that equalizers aren't exacerbating the problem frequencies, and so that the "sss" overshoots aren't hogging the contour/response behavior of my primary compressor.

PS: UREI LA-22 is a very hip compressor that can do the de-ess trick surprisingly transparently (if you snipe me on ebay for one, there'll be hell to pay). Waves' Ren-De-esser is actually pretty decent too. Haven't used a DBX 902 in years, but it works pretty well, at the expense of a little "hardening" of the remaining signal (IMO).

Faking Dolby-A in plugins never feels the same as the real thing (and too bad, as the Dolby-A thing can be a cool effect). However, compressing a mult of the signal (with fast attack and release), highpass filtering it and blending it back in with the original (time-aligned) is perhaps in the neighborhood of the ballpark ... not really the same, but something I often try on vocals where air-boosting with an equalizer sounds too "equalizer-y" ... Either can effectively re-ess some vocals, too!

-dave

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by dave-G
PS: UREI LA-22 is a very hip compressor that can do the de-ess trick surprisingly transparently (if you snipe me on ebay for one, there'll be hell to pay). Waves' Ren-De-esser is actually pretty decent too. Haven't used a DBX 902 in years, but it works pretty well, at the expense of a little "hardening" of the remaining signal (IMO).
-dave

Hey Dave,

Keep it on the down low on the LA22(one of my secret weapons for mixing lead vocals).

dave-G · 22nd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Dave,

Keep it on the down low on the LA22(one of my secret weapons for mixing lead vocals).

I actually just came back to edit that out, in the interest of maintaining the down-low until i buy one more of them, but now that you've quoted me, we're both done for on Ebay

-dave

ps: good luck with your sample-hunger-strike on the DUC!

Jay Kahrs · 22nd September 2003

I'm kinda in love with my Valley 415 de-esser. If only it was balanced. I usually stick make it the first thing in the vocal chain and hardly ever use it when tracking.

madrigal · 22nd September 2003

Dave&Thrill, I've just picked up an la-22 myself, and am loving it. What a lot in a single box - nice compression, and the best de-esser I've used. I don't know if it's just my unit though, but the metering is a little funny - lights up like a christmas tree even with only moderate amounts of compression going on (to my ears anyway).

I'm just wondering though, do you guys have any tips for using it, or any preferred applications in addition to vox? So far I've used the limiter a fair amount to trim peaks when recording to digital, but apart from using the de-esser haven't played round with it too much when mixing.

Hope this isn't asking you to part with too many secrets!!

mac black · 22nd September 2003

Thanks guys ya all very kind

I think im gonna start trying to de-ess earlier in the chain.
LA22 hmmm i'll look out for it

thethrillfactor · 22nd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by mac black
Thanks guys ya all very kind
I think im gonna start trying to de-ess earlier in the chain.
LA22 hmmm i'll look out for it

Damn Dave see what you started!!!!

jazzius II · 22nd September 2003

Mac-nasty vocal esses are very often due to distortion (of the mic, the pre?...i dunno, i'm not a recording engineer, alright!).....no de-esser can remove distortion.....only lessen the hi-frequencies.....but the distortion will still be there.......

Bob Olhsson · 22nd September 2003

De-essing and de-popping are one place where DAWs are simply awesome. While it's time consuming, you can go in and de-ess or de-pop just the offensive sounds while leaving everything else intact. I do a lot of this in my mastering work. Sounds better than running it through any de-esser I've ever heard.

dave-G · 22nd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Damn Dave see what you started!!!!

DAMMIT!!! I swear I was ready to self-servingly edit the LA-22 comment out of my message, until you came along quoting and corroborating me.

... 'cause what I meant to say was... LA-22's suck monkey pancreas.... Oh, and by the way, they're totally useless for anything else other than de-essing, where they still suck monkey pancreas, as I may have mentioned before [/lie]

(I just need one more... So, stay away from ebay, fellow gearslutz. I've got dibs on cheap LA-22s! fuuck)

-dave

thethrillfactor · 23rd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by madrigal
Dave&Thrill, I've just picked up an la-22 myself, and am loving it. What a lot in a single box - nice compression, and the best de-esser I've used. I don't know if it's just my unit though, but the metering is a little funny - lights up like a christmas tree even with only moderate amounts of compression going on (to my ears anyway).

I'm just wondering though, do you guys have any tips for using it, or any preferred applications in addition to vox? So far I've used the limiter a fair amount to trim peaks when recording to digital, but apart from using the de-esser haven't played round with it too much when mixing.

Hope this isn't asking you to part with too many secrets!!

Its one of my favorite vocal mixdown compressors.

I use the sidechain to really zone in on the offensive parts.

I always have it after an EQ by the way(to me it sounds much better this way).

I don't use heavy compression either(i normally don't anyway).

Alécio Costa · 23rd September 2003

Waves TDM de-esser is not that bad at all. It has been providing me nice results.

madrigal · 23rd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Its one of my favorite vocal mixdown compressors.

I use the sidechain to really zone in on the offensive parts.

I always have it after an EQ by the way(to me it sounds much better this way).

I don't use heavy compression either(i normally don't anyway).

Thanks for the tip! thumbsup

dave-G · 23rd September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by slipperman
LA-22 is also a great 'secret clubhouse' call on DS. LOL.

Then again, I just like that thing in general , esp. on some electric basses and guitar solos.

It's funny, EVERYBODY hated it when it came out.....anyone remembering this but me?

I remember some folks hating it, but it was just misunderstood!!

I got mine from the distributor on whose shelf it was gathering dust. For cheep.

Then again, in 1996, I went running to the dealership about a week after consumer reports' specious article proclaiming the Isuzu Trooper to be prone to rollovers. I got the thing for more than 10k below sticker, and it's still very upright. I suppose it's my pattern to find good gear under the radar or against conventional wisdom ... and get it cheaply.

Now shut the hell up about the LA-22, you're wrecking the conventional wisdom.

-dave

thethrillfactor · 24th September 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by slipperman

LA-22 is also a great 'secret clubhouse' call on DS. LOL.

Then again, I just like that thing in general , esp. on some electric basses and guitar solos.

It's funny, EVERYBODY hated it when it came out.....anyone remembering this but me?

HOHOHO.

Time heals all wounds.

Best regards.

SM.

They hated it because they seem to burn out because of no heat sinks.

I had mine modified with vents on top.

It was supposed to be the "best of" all of the Urei's.

I wouldn't necessarily call it that, but it is fantastic on vocals. also works great on kicks.

22nd September 2003	#12
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 10,638	De-essing and de-popping are one place where DAWs are simply awesome. While it's time consuming, you can go in and de-ess or de-pop just the offensive sounds while leaving everything else intact. I do a lot of this in my mastering work. Sounds better than running it through any de-esser I've ever heard. __________________ Bob's room 615 562-4346 Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Music Industry 2.0 Interview

23rd September 2003	#15
Alécio Costa Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Brazil, Florianópolis/SC Posts: 1,705	Waves TDM de-esser is not that bad at all. It has been providing me nice results. __________________ Alécio Costa Studio www.aleciocosta.com http://www.facebook.com/alecio.costa Artist career at: http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta http://www.myspace.com/aleciocosta

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22nd September 2003	#1
mac black Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: london Posts: 2,787 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	De-essing Junst wondering, how do you de-ess your vocals? My chain is : gate , 1176(sometimes) , exciter , eq , limiter , de-esser.( extra eq&comp if needed). So basically i like to de-ess at the end of the chain. is that a good positioning for it or should i de-ess earlier in the chain? Also , i like the air from dolby A on vox(u know what i mean) any ideas how to fake it with plugins? Thanks Mac __________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" ... - Thomas Mann

22nd September 2003	#3
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 4,061	From an SSL point of view: Step #1: Mult the vocal track (or track in question, works nicely on Hi Hats as well, but try not to limit your use of this technique) next to your vocal track, but make sure it isn't the same number of any group send in use because you'll be using your direct outputs of the console. Step #2: Hit the CR button, which puts the eq into the channel. Filter off all the lows, even cutting lows, and boost as much as you can from 6k - 9k depending on the track in question. (Is it esses? tsks? pisses? male vocal? female? a cher transexual? etc...) Step #3: Hit the MON button in your dynamics section. Compress with the fastest attack and release times (put up on the release knob and leave it turned full counter clockwise). Set your ratio to infinity. Your threshold should sit nice around -10 or so, again, depending on the material. Step #4: This one depends on the console you are on. Press the DIRECT, FLOAT, and READY GROUP buttons and lift the group knob to solo iso the channel. If you are on a 9000, take off LF Mix (so the large fader doesn't go to the 2 mix) and hit the LF ISO to isolate the solo of the channel. Step #5: Hit the "LINK" button of the left of the 2 channels. It doesn't matter which track is on which side, which can make finding a channel that doesn't share a group send number a little easier. Step #6: Automate the large fader on the channel you hit all the buttons on as your threshold. If you are on the 9000 series, don't let the release time LED's fool you. It shouldn't really matter because your release times should be as short as possible, but if for some reason you did a 1 sec release, the LED's DO NOT represent a 1 sec release time. (never understood that LED release thing myself). This can provide a very specfic and effective Dess without sounding unatural. The Waves Desser (the new one) blows away the DBX902's IMO. Also, you can automate the threshold like the above technique which is my preference.

22nd September 2003	#4
dave-G Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 2,481	99% of the time, I'll de-ess early in the chain, so that equalizers aren't exacerbating the problem frequencies, and so that the "sss" overshoots aren't hogging the contour/response behavior of my primary compressor. PS: UREI LA-22 is a very hip compressor that can do the de-ess trick surprisingly transparently (if you snipe me on ebay for one, there'll be hell to pay). Waves' Ren-De-esser is actually pretty decent too. Haven't used a DBX 902 in years, but it works pretty well, at the expense of a little "hardening" of the remaining signal (IMO). Faking Dolby-A in plugins never feels the same as the real thing (and too bad, as the Dolby-A thing can be a cool effect). However, compressing a mult of the signal (with fast attack and release), highpass filtering it and blending it back in with the original (time-aligned) is perhaps in the neighborhood of the ballpark ... not really the same, but something I often try on vocals where air-boosting with an equalizer sounds too "equalizer-y" ... Either can effectively re-ess some vocals, too! -dave

22nd September 2003	#8
madrigal Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ireland Posts: 119	Dave&Thrill, I've just picked up an la-22 myself, and am loving it. What a lot in a single box - nice compression, and the best de-esser I've used. I don't know if it's just my unit though, but the metering is a little funny - lights up like a christmas tree even with only moderate amounts of compression going on (to my ears anyway). I'm just wondering though, do you guys have any tips for using it, or any preferred applications in addition to vox? So far I've used the limiter a fair amount to trim peaks when recording to digital, but apart from using the de-esser haven't played round with it too much when mixing. Hope this isn't asking you to part with too many secrets!!

22nd September 2003	#9
mac black Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: london Posts: 2,787 Thread Starter 2 Reviews written	Thanks guys ya all very kind I think im gonna start trying to de-ess earlier in the chain. LA22 hmmm i'll look out for it

22nd September 2003	#11
jazzius II Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,002	Mac-nasty vocal esses are very often due to distortion (of the mic, the pre?...i dunno, i'm not a recording engineer, alright!).....no de-esser can remove distortion.....only lessen the hi-frequencies.....but the distortion will still be there.......