70's Trident Studio piano questions

[writethis]

I've long been in love with the sound of mid-70's rock done at Trident -- Trick of the Tail, Crime of the Century, Ziggy Stardust, etc.

Questions pertaining to the grand piano which appears on all these great records:

1) What was the piano in question?

2) Where is it now?

3) Has anybody released a sampled version of that specific instrument?

Thanks in advance, sluts.

michael

[juniorhifikit]

I've spoken to one of the engineers from that studio in that era (name escapes me), but I kind of remember him talking about lots of EQ, lots of compression, and pre delay on a plate (not common knowledge at that time).

[metaldog]

This sounds like the same studio that the early Queen recordings were made?

That studio has been Sarm East (owned by Trevor Horn) for a number of years and I had the priviledge of having that piano on a track I recorded there played by a very good friend of mine who is a genius pianist.

The piano is a Bosendorfer and is the nicest sounding piano I have ever heard. It really is a special beast. It is the very same piano that is on Bohemian Rhapsody, Seven Seas of Rye etc....

You can feel it's presence just standing in the same room with it, it really is that amazing!! I think it is from the 1920's, so it's not as old as you may think.

Hope this sheds some light for you.

Rob Cooke

[writethis]

Thanks for chiming in, frankly I'm surprised more didn't come of this thread.

I think the question as to name in the post above was referring to the engineer, not the studio. I am speaking specifically of Trident Studio. Are you suggesting that the Bosendorfer you speak of is the one that was in Trident? Is Sarm East currently occupying the old Trident space? Hopefully more London Slutz will speak up.

Regardless, I know what you mean about the vibe of magical instruments that played a part in classic recordings. Same with the great studios, at least the ones I've hade a chance to spend time in. Sunset Sound especially for me.

But I digress...

[metaldog]

Yes that is right.

It's the old Trident studio in East London (near the famous Brick Lane).

When I recorded there in 2000 there was a Neve VR from, probably the 80's and I was tracking to Protools......A far cry from the original days! But there is still some nice outboard there too (LA2As 1176's etc) and that plate reverb is still going and sounds as warm as toast!

[writethis]

Wow, very cool. So now I finally know.

What I wouldn't give to have been seconding for Ken Scott in that room back in the day...his work there is heavily imprinted in my DNA, and still seems to influence my musical sensibilities on almost a daily basis.

michael

[Jules]

Errrr Trident in Soho, central London methinks!

I only mixed there a few times in the late 80's, no idea where it went, but at the time I was there, the studio manager sure was proud of it - it was a big selling point for the facility...

[The Man]

When I recorded there in 2000 there was a Neve VR from, probably the 80's and I was tracking to Protools......A far cry from the original days! But there is still some nice outboard there too (LA2As 1176's etc) and that plate reverb is still going and sounds as warm as toast!


No longer there I'm afraid. Well, the studio is but it's now under different ownership and all of that gear has gone.

[metaldog]

That may be so.....

But that's where those Queen recordings were made regardless.

[The Man]

That may be so.....

But that's where those Queen recordings were made regardless.

True, but part of the question was "where is the piano now?" Someone said it was at Sarm East. It isn't. (Although that wierd carving thing of people having sex on the back wall still is.)

[chrisso]

Yeah, but it wasn't Sarm East (as Jules points out).
Trident was in St Annes Court in the heart of Soho.
There seems to be a lot of film & tv edit rooms around there now.

[metaldog]

I didn't actually state that it was the same piano.

I stated that it sounds like the same studio, seeing as that piano is very much a legend in it's own right, which I was obviously mistaken.

Now, if someone can clarify what that studio was called before it was Sarm East then I'll be grateful for that, because I was led to believe that this was called Trident. It has not always been Sarm East.

Aftter all it's not uncommon for a studio to have more than one location.

There is also as I'm sure most of you are aware a Sarm West and a Sarm Hookend.

It would be nice to know the full story as that studio had a great history of it's own and a great vibe...

Thanks.

[Jules]

I thought Sarm WEST was once the legendary Island Records owned Basing St studios (Led Zep, Bob Marley - Helios desk etc)

I think Sarm East is in a depressing side Street in the rag trade - curry disctrict of East London...

Both Sarms had their heyday in the 80's as AMS, Fairlight, Lexicon 480, SSL 'palaces' owned by production supremo - Trevor Horn and his manager wife Jill Sinclair and their ZTT record lable..

Will the real piano please stand up?

[chrisso]

Yeah, Sarm West was previously Basing Street (owned by Island).
I have no idea what Sarm East was, maybe it was nothing before Sarm East?
Certainly Trident was Trident in St Anne's Court.
All the classic 'Trident Studios' recordings were recorded there.
I'm not sure if they had an outpost, I suspect not.
As far as the piano is concerned, it was surely housed at St Anne's Court and where it ended up, your guess is as good as mine.

[Jules]

Nooooooo!

The Victoria location was in no way the original Trident.

It was known as Trident 2 and was only aquired in the 80's. (I've also worked there)

All the 'classic' Trident recordings were done at the Soho St Annes Court location..

As I understand it!

[RussTee61]

The Trident Piano!!!

Some facts:

Firstly: It was a Bechstien.

Secondly: It did have a distinctive sound, due as much to the supposed hardening of the hammers, as to the fact that the action on the keys was really knackered forcing the player to attack the keys that little bit harder. Add this to the bright piano booth just under the main control room (if used) and you got THAT sound.

Thirdly: When Trident Studios was sold to Tape One in 1987, the piano was badly damaged as it was being moved to Trident 2 (which WAS in the Victoria area and still owned by Trident at the time!). The cradle supporting the piano broke as it was being extracted from Studio 1 and the piano went tumbling down the stairs! This happened in front of me, so I know what I'm talking about! The frame was split and the harp cracked! The bits were then crated off to Trident 2 where I understand it was eventually rebuilt before being sold. I have no idea who eventually bought it, but it was rumored to have gone to the U.S.

Finally: Was it sampled? No, not the original piano anyway, but remember that the piano as remembered on those early records, was restrung and was never quite the same afterwards (very close, but not the same) and this was years before samplers were even conceived! So that piano cannot be sampled anyway, sorry.

For the record, I worked at the St Annes Court studios for over five years, from the mid eighties, as Trident Studios, on to it's closure as Audio One in mid 1990.

[writethis]

Wow. Thanks for the illumination, especially in the context of a thread which has lain dormant for 6 years! What I wouldn't give to have been there (other than watching the piano tumble down a stair anyway).

[l.sicilian]

Originally Posted by RussTee61

The Trident Piano!!!

Some facts:

Firstly: It was a Bechstien.

Secondly: It did have a distinctive sound, due as much to the supposed hardening of the hammers, as to the fact that the action on the keys was really knackered forcing the player to attack the keys that little bit harder. Add this to the bright piano booth just under the main control room (if used) and you got THAT sound.

Thirdly: When Trident Studios was sold to Tape One in 1987, the piano was badly damaged as it was being moved to Trident 2 (which WAS in the Victoria area and still owned by Trident at the time!). The cradle supporting the piano broke as it was being extracted from Studio 1 and the piano went tumbling down the stairs! This happened in front of me, so I know what I'm talking about! The frame was split and the harp cracked! The bits were then crated off to Trident 2 where I understand it was eventually rebuilt before being sold. I have no idea who eventually bought it, but it was rumored to have gone to the U.S.

Finally: Was it sampled? No, not the original piano anyway, but remember that the piano as remembered on those early records, was restrung and was never quite the same afterwards (very close, but not the same) and this was years before samplers were even conceived! So that piano cannot be sampled anyway, sorry.

For the record, I worked at the St Annes Court studios for over five years, from the mid eighties, as Trident Studios, on to it's closure as Audio One in mid 1990.

Amazing story - thanks!

[timtoonz]

Yeah - I'd always heard it was a Bechstein too.

Of course, I wanted that to be true because I just purchased my first grand piano -- a 6' 3" Bechstein and it is AMAZING.

[l.sicilian]

Originally Posted by timtoonz

Yeah - I'd always heard it was a Bechstein too.

Of course, I wanted that to be true because I just purchased my first grand piano -- a 6' 3" Bechstein and it is AMAZING.

Congratulations. thumbsup

[maxhype]

Just my own humble opinion, but as a pianist I don't tend to get attached to one specific piano or another. It may have to do with the fact that we often have to play whatever piano is at the studio or venue that day. I'm often jealous of guitarists who get to travel with their favorite axe.

I've played literally hundreds (possibly thousands?) of pianos in my lifetime, and while I have played many that were exceptional instruments (and many that weren't) what stands out for me in my memory is usually 'that' make of 'that' size in 'that' room on "that" day combined ("I remember that 6' Steinway in that amazing room for that October session"...I would never say "That Steinway is SO special").

I love, for instance, Schimmels for their shimmering high register (wonderful for Mozart) or Steinways for their rich balance, etc. But not just one of them.

So my thought for the OP is to aim for that 70's Trident sound with the whole chain approach - all outboard, the arrangement, the approach of the mix, etc. I know that sounds obvious, but if you gave me a talented engineer with knowledge of those recordings and pretty much any good piano in a similar room I think we could get closer to 'that' sound than seeking a sampled version of that specific instrument....since it would probably lack the other 1,000 variables involved.

Just my 2 cents. Very cool stories though...

[Sounds Great]

I'm glad this thread was resurrected. The piano sound on Crime of the Century is my favorite!
How sad the piano took such a tumble, after finally getting properly aged.

We really need to get Ken Scott in here to give us all the details. He hasn't been around in a while, but he does pop in occasionally.

[Mark Kaufman]

Think about all the classic tracks that piano has played on. This is from an interview with Ken Scott:

Is it true that the piano at Trident used by Mick Ronson on Hunky Dory and Ziggy was the same piano used by the Beatles for "Hey Jude" on The White album?

Yes it was the same piano used on "Hey Jude", the early Elton John albums, Nilsson, Carly Simon, Genesis and Supertramp amongst many others. That was one of Trident's claim to fame. THE piano sound. It was an amazing piano.

Source

(Click on the piano pic for more info on it.)

Boggles the mind. It's like an instrument superstar...I wonder how many other famous single instruments we could name that have been played by several different bands. I guess most world class studios have something like that, but I never read much about the phenomenon. It's one thing when Eels uses the same piano Neil Young played on "After the Gold Rush", but this piano is in another league.

Hats off to that Bechstein!

[Mark Kaufman]

This piano got me thinking about what songs were recorded on it. I'm pretty sure it's the same 100-year-old piano on all these songs, but I might be wrong on a couple. It's a hell of a resume, played by more rock stars than even Pamela Des Barres, maybe.

Beatles
Hey Jude
Martha My Dear
Honey Pie
Bowie
Changes
Life On Mars?
Oh! You Pretty Things
Suffragette city
Lady Stardust
Aladdin Sane
Let's Spend the Night Together
The Rolling Stones
Jiving Sister Fanny
Downtown Susie
Nilsson
Without You
Gotta Get Up
Spaceman
You're Breakin' My Heart
Lou Reed
Perfect Day
Satellite of Love
Ringo Starr
It Don't Come Easy
George Harrison
Parts of album All Things Must Pass
Carly Simon
You're So Vain
The Right Thing To Do
Elton John
Your Song
Border song
Tiny Dancer
Levon
Madman Across the Water
Supertramp
Bloody Well Right
Crime of the Century
Queen
Killer Queen
Bohemian Rhapsody
Genesis
Albums Nursery Crime and Trespass
T.Rex
Album T.Rex, piano played by Visconti

[Lathe Jockey]

Russ Tee is quite right about the piano. I was chief mastering engineer at the time and also stayed on during the transfer from Trident to Audio One.

The piano fell down the whole flight of stairs from ground floor to the basement studio. Tragic!

I saw the comment about not being attached to a particular piano. The point is that this piano recorded really well. You can get pianos that sound fine to the ear, but just don't sound as good on tape (sorry old school).

I wonder what current instruments, or equipment will be the treasured items of the future?

[sebsebseb]

I've always had doubts about this. We can be sure they had a 1898 Bechstein for the Beatles days and at least since 1982 when the studio actually bought the piano as opposed to having it hired from Jacques Samuels. But a 1972 detailed equipment list (published on Billboard) lists a Steinway.

Which leaves two main possibilities:

* They'd hired the Bechstein for the 'Hey Jude' sessions as they hadn't been able to find a Steinway overnight (that story is confirmed on Beatles Gear IIRC). Then, for early 70's, they had a Steinway. At some point later on they got the Bechstein again.

* They always had the Bechstein and the magazine printed a mistake.

Keep in mind that when the Bechstein was auctioned, loads of things were stretched in order to make it more appealing to potential buyers (i.e. getting them to bid), so loads of things could've been said that weren't necessarily true.

IMO, they DID have a Steinway in early 70's (including all Queen sessions), as the sound of the piano in both 'March of the Black Queen' and 'Funny How Love Is' backing tracks is a bit more similar to it than European makes. Still, I'm not entirely certain as the way Fred pounded the keyboard made it hard to distinguish any particular voicing.

That matter's still unresolved. However, the Trident thing's still stretched, as Queen only recorded the first two albums there. For the third, they only went there to mix and only a couple of tracks were completely laid down there (Now I'm Here and God Save the Queen, which remained unreleased until the fifth album). And the fifth was done elsewhere.

So, Killer Queen, Flick of the Wrist, Lily of the Valley, Leroy Brown, Dear Friends and Tenement Funster do NOT contain anything played on the Trident piano. They may include Trident vocals, but by the time they went back to London they'd already done the backing tracks in Wales.

As for Bo Rhap: it was recorded at several studios, but Trident was not one of them.

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by sebsebseb

I've always had doubts about this. We can be sure they had a 1898 Bechstein for the Beatles days and at least since 1982 when the studio actually bought the piano as opposed to having it hired from Jacques Samuels. But a 1972 detailed equipment list (published on Billboard) lists a Steinway.

Which leaves two main possibilities:

* They'd hired the Bechstein for the 'Hey Jude' sessions as they hadn't been able to find a Steinway overnight (that story is confirmed on Beatles Gear IIRC). Then, for early 70's, they had a Steinway. At some point later on they got the Bechstein again.

* They always had the Bechstein and the magazine printed a mistake.

Keep in mind that when the Bechstein was auctioned, loads of things were stretched in order to make it more appealing to potential buyers (i.e. getting them to bid), so loads of things could've been said that weren't necessarily true.

IMO, they DID have a Steinway in early 70's (including all Queen sessions), as the sound of the piano in both 'March of the Black Queen' and 'Funny How Love Is' backing tracks is a bit more similar to it than European makes. Still, I'm not entirely certain as the way Fred pounded the keyboard made it hard to distinguish any particular voicing.

That matter's still unresolved. However, the Trident thing's still stretched, as Queen only recorded the first two albums there. For the third, they only went there to mix and only a couple of tracks were completely laid down there (Now I'm Here and God Save the Queen, which remained unreleased until the fifth album). And the fifth was done elsewhere.

So, Killer Queen, Flick of the Wrist, Lily of the Valley, Leroy Brown, Dear Friends and Tenement Funster do NOT contain anything played on the Trident piano. They may include Trident vocals, but by the time they went back to London they'd already done the backing tracks in Wales.

As for Bo Rhap: it was recorded at several studios, but Trident was not one of them.

On liner notes for Night At The Opera Freddie Mercury is credited for Freddie Mercury with vocals, vocals, Bechstein Debauchery and more Vocals.

I also recall that I read an inteview with Roy Thomas Baker about recording that piano for Bohemian Rhapsody in Trident..no wait..

He cut it in Rockfield Studios in Wales. And he took The Darkness there to record their album there as well. (Copycats!) No wait...Wikipedia says it was recorded in many places (including Rockfield) and regarding the piano:
"Mercury used a Bechstein "concert grand" piano, which he played in the promotional video and the UK tour. Due to the elaborate nature of the song, it was recorded in various different sections, held together merely by a drum click to keep it in time."


Kalli

[sebsebseb]

The liner notes of ANATO also mention the studios used: Scorpio, Rockfield, Sarm, Olympic, Roundhouse, Lansdowne.

Neither Trident nor Wessex (two of the most important studios in the Queen world) were used for Opera: the former because the band had broken their agreement with the company, the latter because it was being restored after it changed administration.

I'm not denying a Bechstein was used for Bo Rhap. I'm clearing, though, that:

1. Bo Rhap was not done at Trident. Neither was Killer Queen (piano-wise).
2. Queen did not use a Bechstein at Trident. At the time, there was a Steinway there. Had Queen been there four years earlier or ten years later, it'd be a different story.

BTW, for the tour, Fred used a different piano every night, and only played the white Bechstein on the Xmas Eve gig. That Wiki info was generated by someone reading the Queenconcerts info on the matter, which is incorrect (I should know - I wrote that Queenconcerts section, so I'm the one to blame for that!).

Once again, due to incorrect info being repeated until it's assumed to be true, we wind up barking at the wrong tree for years.

[bolide]

Originally Posted by Jules

I thought Sarm WEST was once the legendary Island Records owned Basing St studios (Led Zep, Bob Marley - Helios desk etc)

I think Sarm East is in a depressing side Street in the rag trade - curry disctrict of East London...

Both Sarms had their heyday in the 80's as AMS, Fairlight, Lexicon 480, SSL 'palaces' owned by production supremo - Trevor Horn and his manager wife Jill Sinclair and their ZTT record lable..

That's about right

The Sarm East piano was a Bosendorfer with an extended bottom octave. Nice-sounding piano and it was used a lot

From memory the studio originally had a Trident console but it had been replaced by an early SSL 4000E when I worked there. Tiny control room with a little machine room off to the side, SSL remote patchbay in the outboard rack

Trident was in St Annes Court the other side of London. Very different places

Nick Froome

[sebsebseb]

Great info, thanks. Can you give us some more details on Sarm East? Who established them and how did they change over the years? There's a lot of info about other studios, but not those ones. Not on the pre-Horn era anyway.