Inexpensive hardware limiters vs plugins

[Swurveman]

I can get an Aphex Dominator II 720 for $100.00, while a Waves L1 is $150.00
I'm mostly going to be using the limiter for mastering in a chain after a API 2500 and a UBK Clariphonic. So, I'm already going out of the box for a round trip. Is there any reason, assuming the Dominator is in good working order, why I shouldn't buy the Dominator?

[Apollo Soul]

Forget L1. It's a one trick pony. Unless that exact type of limiting is the only thing you'll ever need, you're stuck with something that won't work the majority of the time.

Take a look at Flux. MUCH more control, and can be massaged to sound just right.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by Apollo Soul

Forget L1. It's a one trick pony. Unless that exact type of limiting is the only thing you'll ever need, you're stuck with something that won't work the majority of the time.

Take a look at Flux. MUCH more control, and can be massaged to sound just right.

How is it a one trick pony in relation to the Dominator II 720?

[gammalord]

+1 Flux or ITB solution that is NOT waves. I really like the Sonnox and (eek) izotope limiters. I like waves stuff in general, but all the L series limiters seem to suck the life out of the LE. Maybe I'm paranoid - but I feel like the waves programmers left maxxbass on when designing the algorithms for the L's or something. There's also better dithering options than what the Ls offer.

You're going out to great gear and much happiness will print from that on the way back in - I'd say you're safe to go back in to limit, and considering loudness is such a contentious issue these days, I like the flexibility and options that software provides.

[dasnub]

Originally Posted by Apollo Soul

Forget L1. It's a one trick pony. Unless that exact type of limiting is the only thing you'll ever need, you're stuck with something that won't work the majority of the time.

Take a look at Flux. MUCH more control, and can be massaged to sound just right.

What trick are you referring to? Sometimes less is more. Complicated plugs don't get used much in my experience...

[nedorama]

I'd rather have a good plugin than a cheap HW piece.

I'm very happy with PSP's vintage warmer on the mix buss - nicely done multiband compression that doesn't just do brick wall. For $149, very, very useful.

[Apollo Soul]

Originally Posted by dasnub

What trick are you referring to? Sometimes less is more. Complicated plugs don't get used much in my experience...

It does only one very specific type of limiting. It has zero control over attack, lookahead, knee, ratio, etc. It really couldn't be much more crippled.

Does it sound ok on certain things? sure.

Something like Flux, on the other hand can do what L1 does plus much MUCH more.

If you haven't tried it, use it the same way you would L1, and just try adjusting one thing at a time. You'll quickly see how much you've been missing.

The lookahead slider alone has a HUGE impact on how it reacts.

The knee adjustment is more than a big deal.

It will handle all your limiting needs from individual tracks to busses to MB, and give you more flexability at each step.

Will it take a little while to understand what the controls do? Probably, but it's frankly a lot less complicated than something like Vintage Warmer, and far better unless you're purposefully looking for distortion.

Actually, if I had NOTHING but the Glue, Flux, apulsoft EQ, and a couple reverbs, I'd be just fine. If I wanted to waste some time and dig into tone subtleties from there, I'd add nebula next... but that one is a bit of Pandora's box.

Definitely can't say the same for L1 in the limiter spot, though. 3/4 of the uses I have it just can't do.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by gammalord

+1 Flux or ITB solution that is NOT waves. I really like the Sonnox and (eek) izotope limiters. I like waves stuff in general, but all the L series limiters seem to suck the life out of the LE. Maybe I'm paranoid - but I feel like the waves programmers left maxxbass on when designing the algorithms for the L's or something. There's also better dithering options than what the Ls offer.

You're going out to great gear and much happiness will print from that on the way back in - I'd say you're safe to go back in to limit, and considering loudness is such a contentious issue these days, I like the flexibility and options that software provides.

Thanks for your reply gammalord. Speaking towards your point that you feel the L1 has maxbass left on, one of the things that the Dominator has is 3 Bands of Limiting with Switchable Crossover Frequencies. So, there's some control there.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by nedorama

I'd rather have a good plugin than a cheap HW piece.

I'm very happy with PSP's vintage warmer on the mix buss - nicely done multiband compression that doesn't just do brick wall. For $149, very, very useful.

It wasn't cheap when it was newly manufactured, and the current model is going for $1,199.00

That being said, have you heard it?

[thermos]

Definitely a plugin will get you much further level wise with less damage than a cheap hardware piece. Izotope Ozone 5 has an amazing limiter section (best one I've heard).

[Apollo Soul]

If you truly want to limit peaks in absolute fashion, there's just no getting around lookahead. This is something that a decent plug can do that the best analog gear just can't.

Flux has freq filters built in too if you care about such things. I generally disable them... at least on the low end.

Depends on what you're looking for. If you want a character 1176 sort of thing, then by all means get the gear. If you want to truly CONTROL peaks, though... I'd get a good software limiter that you can dial in.

[gammalord]

Yeah I just looked at the specs on the Aphex piece (I didnt know what it had to offer). Looks like cool gear and doesn't it offer their big bottom circuit?

I guess my point was not to downplay the virtues of the Aphex so much as to steer you towards a software solution other than the waves limiters. Frankly, the aphex would be my choice between those two for sure.

Shit if you can get it for 100 bucks then go for it. You're already OTB and going into the fabulous API -- I mean, why not just complete the chain? In fact, some people believe that slamming the converters on the way back in imparts its own special flavors to the final.

However - if it was simply a "waves L1/L2/L3 vs (other) software limiter"...I'd choose other.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by Apollo Soul

If you truly want to limit peaks in absolute fashion, there's just no getting around lookahead. This is something that a decent plug can do that the best analog gear just can't.

Flux has freq filters built in too if you care about such things. I generally disable them... at least on the low end.

Depends on what you're looking for. If you want a character 1176 sort of thing, then by all means get the gear. If you want to truly CONTROL peaks, though... I'd get a good software limiter that you can dial in.

Thanks for your response Apollo Soul.

Yeah, I see the value of the lookahead, though the Dominator II claims to have a patented method to produce a predictable peak output while maintaining maximum loudness without audible distortion. I don't know whether this is the same as a lookahead process, which the Waves L1 has also.

I don't know a lot about limiters, but the Dominator II's processing claims to solves spectral gain intermodulation as well. Do the Flux and the Waves etc. limiters do this?

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by gammalord

Yeah I just looked at the specs on the Aphex piece (I didnt know what it had to offer). Looks like cool gear and doesn't it offer their big bottom circuit?

I guess my point was not to downplay the virtues of the Aphex so much as to steer you towards a software solution other than the waves limiters. Frankly, the aphex would be my choice between those two for sure.

Shit if you can get it for 100 bucks then go for it. You're already OTB and going into the fabulous API -- I mean, why not just complete the chain? In fact, some people believe that slamming the converters on the way back in imparts its own special flavors to the final.

However - if it was simply a "waves L1/L2/L3 vs (other) software limiter"...I'd choose other.

Thanks for your reply gammalord.

The "you're already out of the box" was my thinking as well. I could have the three hardware pieces in one rack and tweak and listen. Of course, if there was a discernible difference in sound quality in the limiter it would give me pause. That's the reason I'm here trying to get some feedback.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by thermos

Definitely a plugin will get you much further level wise with less damage than a cheap hardware piece

You're absolutely correct about a cheap piece of hardware... but you're dead wrong in comparison to an inexpensive piece of hardware. The FMR stuff is inexpensive - but highly useable... the Dbx stuff is cheap and not so useable [IMNTLBHO - YMMV].

Peace

[Bassmankr]

Given a new Aphex Dominator is $1200, picking up a used one for $100 is a good deal and something you should be able to flip and break even with or make a profit off of if you don't end up liking it. The Aphex gear across the board does transparent very well, in fact one of the better bang for the buck for that role given their used prices. I've seen Aphex Compellors being used in the signal chain you describe with other members here. Sounds like you are just looking for loudness with your choices though with the Dominator or software L1/L2 plugs and it's not something many of us want to feed into (the loudness wars). Some of us would rather not have the extra distorsion that comes with the mastered extra loudness and instead just turn up the volume knob on our listening devices.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by Swurveman

It wasn't cheap when it was newly manufactured, and the current model is going for $1,199.00

That being said, have you heard it?

I have not heard that Aphex, only some of their older lower-priced models.

When you said an Aphex for $100 I assumed it was one of their cheaper lines. Makes your decision a bit tougher. Makes me also wonder why a $1200 dynamics processor is being sold for less than 10% of that, but if you can get that deal, get it.

Plug ins will come and go. At $100, you don't even have to like the Aphex for every song you do, but that price is a steal. I'd grab it.

For a mastering dynamics plugin, I do like the vintagewarmer and find it much more versatile than the L1, owning both. I'm sure others have their favorites as well over the Waves L1/L2/L3.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Given a new Aphex Dominator is $1200, picking up a used one for $100 is a good deal and something you should be able to flip and break even with or make a profit off of if you don't end up liking it. The Aphex gear across the board does transparent very well, in fact one of the better bang for the buck for that role given their used prices. I've seen Aphex Compellors being used in the signal chain you describe with other members here. Sounds like you are just looking for loudness with your choices though with the Dominator or software L1/L2 plugs and it's not something many of us want to feed into (the loudness wars). Some of us would rather not have the extra distorsion that comes with the mastered extra loudness and instead just turn up the volume knob on our listening devices.

Thanks for your response. I don't want to feed into the loudness war, I want to give my clients what they want if they want it. I suspect when the major labels back off, my clients will as well. At any rate, I can give them the choice.

[Swurveman]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

You're absolutely correct about a cheap piece of hardware... but you're dead wrong in comparison to an inexpensive piece of hardware. The FMR stuff is inexpensive - but highly useable... the Dbx stuff is cheap and not so useable [IMNTLBHO - YMMV].

Peace

Thanks for supporting the distinction Fletcher. I'd assume you've used, or crossed paths the Dominator. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on its sound quality and versatility vs. the plugs.