PMC TB2S-AII low mid confusion (help)

[Destaana]

Hello everyone.

I'm new to this forum, but I noticed that this is the only forum I know that has mentioned the PMC TB2S-AIIs alot.

First off. I work in radio in Australia and they have a pair of DB1is in the studio and I really like them. So then I did some research and I found out they did a professional series. The TB2S-AIIs caught my eye and I was fortunate enough to try them out in my home studio.

I loaded up a track I knew very well and my reaction was "owww, what on earth?". I was drawn to the very pronounced low mids that was going on in the song. The song was Beautiful Things - by Andain (Tiesto Mix), incase you guys wanted to know. It's a full range song and I love it, which is why I always listen to that track first on any new pair of speakers. Everything apart from that was amazing and I could hear reverb I've never heard before, aswell as a big sense of space. Covering that beauty was terrible low mids around 315Hz and 130Hz. I started not to enjoy the song anymore and I know that it doesn't sound that bad anywhere else. I have listened to that song on almost every system you could think of.

I have read a tone of reviews and forums and no one seems to mention this and everyone seems to love them, but I hated the experience I had on them. They sounded very boxy in the low mids on heavy full range tracks. Could this be my room? Like, this wasn't just a slight problem, it was huge problem. It's such a shame because I loved everything else about them and they were perfect, just like in the studio at work. I even listened at low levels, but it was still happening. I don't have any acoustic treatment right now, but could that really make such a big problem? They also weren't on stands and directly on a desk. I'd invest in stands and treatment, but I'm worried that it won't do anything.

Has anyone else had this experience with the TB2S-AIIs? The guy who was going to sell them to me was very confused and has never heard of such issues. He also insists that placing them on speaker stands will really make a difference?

Thanks!

[Arksun]

Originally Posted by Destaana

I don't have any acoustic treatment right now, but could that really make such a big problem? They also weren't on stands and directly on a desk. I'd invest in stands and treatment, but I'm worried that it won't do anything.

Given that most monitors tend to have freq responses that are within +/- 3db or better and room acoustics can cause wild swings as big as +/- 30db, yes the acoustics of your room could potentially be a big problem. Also sitting directly on a desk is not a good idea. Stands or decoupling them from the desk (ala mopads, recoils, DIY etc) is better.

Are you noticing this low mid issue with just the Tiesto track or most tracks?. If its just the Tiesto track, it could just be highlighting issues with that one. If its the latter, sounds like the room acoustics and/or monitor placement.

[Destaana]

Yeah, it's interesting. In the specific Tiesto track, that's where I notice it the most. It's interesting how different the sound is when I go to headphones, it's completely removed.

In other tracks it's not so bad, but I still notice it. Do you really think stands and room treatment would solve this? Could it be that I don't like the speaker tone them selves in that region?

Even on my small ADAM A5s, I notice it, but its very minimal, it's almost not there, but when I go to my headphones, whatever is annoying in the low mids is gone, but then maybe my headphones (Sennhieser HD 280 pro) aren't accurate enough. I think maybe because the TB2S-AIIs are a bigger speaker, it's infact made the problem bigger it's self. Maybe the issue was always there in the first place, but I didn't notice it that much because of the size of the speaker.

It's quite frustrating.

[Arksun]

With a monitor at the level of the PMC TB2S-AII, you owe it to yourself to sort the placement out and treat the room to get the very best out of them, no question. The difference in sound will be very significant. Less boomy, tighter accurate bass, way bigger soundstage and a whole extra layer of detail that comes through.

You also have to remember that, the better the monitor, the more its going to highlight problems in tracks. One thing I had to get used to when I upgraded my monitors was, how aweful some of my favourite tracks now sounded. But not because the monitors were bad, but because they were highlighting more detail and more issues with those mixes. Like hearing distortion I never noticed before. It made me realise how much my previous monitors actually seemed to flatter some mixes, which is amusing because when I got those I thought that they were a lot truer to the source and made cheaper still monitors sound too flattering. In the end though the very very best engineered mixes should sound amazing on them.

[Destaana]

Originally Posted by Arksun

With a monitor at the level of the PMC TB2S-AII, you owe it to yourself to sort the placement out and treat the room to get the very best out of them, no question. The difference in sound will be very significant. Less boomy, tighter accurate bass, way bigger soundstage and a whole extra layer of detail that comes through.

You also have to remember that, the better the monitor, the more its going to highlight problems in tracks. One thing I had to get used to when I upgraded my monitors was, how aweful some of my favourite tracks now sounded. But not because the monitors were bad, but because they were highlighting more detail and more issues with those mixes. Like hearing distortion I never noticed before. It made me realise how much my previous monitors actually seemed to flatter some mixes, which is amusing because when I got those I thought that they were a lot truer to the source and made cheaper still monitors sound too flattering. In the end though the very very best engineered mixes should sound amazing on them.

So are you saying that the song I referenced wasn't mixed very well?

I'll take your advice and see what I can do. Do you have the TB2S-AIIs your self? I know alot of professionals have them and if they had the problem I described, then I'm sure they would have a terrible rep and not be so popular.

[Tube World]

I have these monitors in my studio and I just love them. I have found them to be very honest monitors and some music like Michael Jacksons Bill Jean has a annoying shaker that is mixed too loud.

I invested in several bass traps for my studio as well as some panels on the side walls. It made a big difference in getting a tighter sound and more accurate bass. Hope that helps.

[TL2]

I just purchased a pair of these off a fellow slut and upon hearing them at his location, I was rather put off by the large hump around 160-250. This hump blurred the imaging and rendered the speakers sluggish sounding. I thought they sounded like utter ass and was convinced it was the room's fault. So I bought them and set them up in my control room (Bill Putnam designed) and they sound GLORIOUS! I never use that word, but damn.... they sound exquisite there. I have to check my switcher because I often think my soffit mounted mains are on. These things were a total pain to setup and placement is critical. But once you find the sweet spot in the room, they reward you with excellent soundstaging, super wide imaging, impressive pace and mid bass / bass definition.

Despite what the manuel says, you cannot place them up against a wall! The bass will smother you and they'll sound terrible.

Good luck and keep trying.

[Jeff19]

Are the monitors new??? The manual recommends I think 20 hrs of break in. I'd suggest at least that much before you judge the low end. The driver mechanism will need a little normal "stretching" before it's ready. I have read a few similar posts from people who didn't break them in and were later very happy with the results.

The second issue is your room. Yes, there will be a problem with no treatment. You may think you will get lucky with the perfect untreated room but that's not going to happen. The smaller the room, probably the more problems you will have. As said before, there could be real 30db changes! Those lows are going to be bouncing around causing a muddy sound. Some recommend spending the same amount on treatment as your monitors. You need at least a few bass traps!

[kechuan]

I've only got the TB2+ with Flying Mole amps but I imagine they might be similiar.

They sound great, but I gotta admit setup was a pain in the ar$e! I found them really fussy for setup and began to doubt them. I read the Mixing with your Mind book for some suggestions on monitor placement and sorted out some bass traps and stands and now I'm really happy with them. And i'd agree as other poster mentioned to keep them away from being close against a well, and also off desk.

[Destaana]

Hello guys

Thanks for all the info!

I guess I just need to fiddle around and see what works best.

Some part of me said that it would be pointless getting room treatment and stands because the problem was so bad, that maybe it was the speaker it self. A huge bump at 130Hz just made me want to turn them off and never listen again.

The second part of me loved everything else. I've listened to alot of pairs of speakers and these ones seemed to make me very happy, and more so, everywhere else except the bump. It seems the further I move away from the speakers, the problem lowers a bit. My room is 12 x 13 feet and 7 feet up to the ceiling, so it's a typical small bedroom. Maybe these speakers are too big for the room? Could that be possible and I should just look else where?

Thanks again.

[Spec]

I have the tb2a with the flying moles. not had an oppotunity to listen to the new ones.

i spoke with the pmc rep. about the new tb2a+ and he told me that pmc have adjusted the cross overs to make them more mid forward. I asked why and he said that was the direction of two way monitors at the moment. slightly brighter and more mid focussed.

so perhaps your experience is not surprising to me. perhaps not as I have not audioned them as yet.

the rep. says that the new pmc d-class amps are a v. noticable improvement over the flying moles.

my two cents.

spek

[Destaana]

Thanks everyone.

Considering speaker stands. What stands are you owners of the TB2S-AIIs using? I'd like ones that do a really good job for these speakers. Any suggestions?

Much appreciated.

[Destaana]

Anyone? :D

I'm sure there are some of you who are using nice stands for these...

[TL2]

Sound Anchors all the way!

[Jeff19]

I am using ultimate support ms-100. I noticed the low end was a little more clear and tight, but it was not an earth shattering difference. I have never tried different stands so I can't compare. These seemed reasonably priced with features that I was looking for so I got them. The pad on the top makes me a little nervous.because I walk by the monitors when I enter the room. A solid bump could send them off the stand. I guess that goes for any stand though.

[erni]

Hi, I am new to the forum. I just like to share my opinion about these speakers.I bought them used about four months ago and never really liked them.

First of all, they have an awful bump in the low mids that obscures the vocals bigtime, even Cds where vocals sound clear and transparent sound muddy on these speakers.

Second, there is not much below 100 Hz, I even measure it and they drop below 100 Hz. So they are kind of useful up to 75 Hz or so, below you don´t know what is going on.

Third, there is no center image. The stereo spread is really nice and open but you can't really tell where the vocals are, they are kind of in the middle but not dead center.

On the positive side the twitters sound very nice and you can really hear the depth in music and reverb tails. I think the tweeters are good.

I have a very well design room and because I read so much about placing this speakers I tried them in four different studios and comparing them to other spekers. Everytime they sounded the same as I described. I even testes both speakers differently in case one was broken, but both have the same frec. response.

Well, all I can say is that either this speakers are broken or they sound awful. I am going to send them to PMC to get them checked because I can´t believe that an almost 3000 Euro speakers could sound so unbalanced and lacking bass response when they claim to go down to 40 Hz.

I hope you find a way to make them work, I haven´t yet. I will be sending them to PMC soon, so I'll report back.

Cheers

Erni

[DavieB]

Originally Posted by Arksun

With a monitor at the level of the PMC TB2S-AII, you owe it to yourself to sort the placement out and treat the room to get the very best out of them, no question. The difference in sound will be very significant. Less boomy, tighter accurate bass, way bigger soundstage and a whole extra layer of detail that comes through.

You also have to remember that, the better the monitor, the more its going to highlight problems in tracks. One thing I had to get used to when I upgraded my monitors was, how aweful some of my favourite tracks now sounded. But not because the monitors were bad, but because they were highlighting more detail and more issues with those mixes. Like hearing distortion I never noticed before. It made me realise how much my previous monitors actually seemed to flatter some mixes, which is amusing because when I got those I thought that they were a lot truer to the source and made cheaper still monitors sound too flattering. In the end though the very very best engineered mixes should sound amazing on them.

I chose mine because they suit the size of my room, which has a vaulted ceiling and wooden floorboards, quite large but not overly. They are positioned on speaker stands with plenty of space behind them which is important. I feed the output from my Prism Orpheus into them. I haven't noticed any issues regarding humps or holes in the frequency range, they seem very good to my ears. They have very good detail and dynamic response overall. PMC support is excellent and since I live in England, if they go wrong, I don't have to deal with sending them back to the US or outside the UK. I was aware of the fact they do need a run in period before using them for production but they settled in quickly and I was happy with them in no time.

I think most things reported here about them might be down to room acoustics.

[Tristonian]

Hey all,

Have had these monitors for about a year. Currently powering them with a parasound a23 (used to have a bryston 4b but I moved and it was to expensive to ship). Always been in an untreated room since I'm waiting to settle down in my new place. The room I have them in right now is about 25' length x 14' width with 20' angled ceiling with the apex being more like 25' I've had these bad boys in two different positions. One is about 3' away from the wall point down the longway of the room, forming a 3' equilateral triangle. The other position had them slightly less than half way down the room with about 15' between the rear of the speakers and the wall. Both these positions have had drastic problems below 200. In the first configuration 100Hz would almost completely cancel out (I tried moving them back and forth to see if I could get a sweet spot). There also is a considerable rolloff starting at 80Hz. I'm going to treat my room either way but I'm curious as to whether anyone has any placement suggestions that have worked for them. I'm also considering getting a pair of less finnicky monitors.

Tristonian