SSL Matrix/fully loaded X Rack VS A/Heath GS-R24 VS Harrison 950m-16 Channel

[Antoine8]

Hey Hey..

So after a long day I have finished demos on the below gear for my next console purchase and prior to making the final call I thought I would seek some GS advice from peeps who have actually played on these consoles or know what they are about.
Right so I cannot afford an AWS or API so the below is all I can work with.

It is not easy running demos, for one you are limited on time and lets face it 1 hour with a console is barely enough time is it.
I think it would take me at least a year to get to know the Matrix.

Harrison 950 16-channel vs
SSL Matrix with a fully loaded x rack to go vs
Allen & Heath GS-R24 vs

So all 3 are fantastic to me in each way, each has positives and negatives. Somehow all of them felt like they were made really well, in particular the SSL.

My goal is to purchase a console that can grow with my studio over the years, sort of the centre piece if you will that will be the hub to all my outboard and my DAW.

??????????
Thanks for reading and the reply!

[The Byre]

Quite honestly, these are three very different beasts and do completely different things, one is a sophisticated controller with ADDA, one is a hybrid desk with integrated controller and ADDA and one is a conventional analogue desk.

All three have (if I remember rightly) been discussed here and elsewhere and there are tests and reviews all over the place, but you need to think through what it is that you really need.

Matrix - plus side is the level of control and the sophistication, minus is the very high price and just 16 channels.

A&H - plus side is the excellent EQ, low price, quality and 32 IO ADDA and expandability with an R16. Minus - I could be better looking, but that is a question of choice.

Harrison 950 16-channel - I have never used this thing, but some people do criticise the EQ and the price is fairly high for a small project room box.

But you need to work out what you really need, before jumping the gun!

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Quite honestly, these are three very different beasts and do completely different things, one is a sophisticated controller with ADDA, one is a hybrid desk with integrated controller and ADDA and one is a conventional analogue desk.

All three have (if I remember rightly) been discussed here and elsewhere and there are tests and reviews all over the place, but you need to think through what it is that you really need.

Matrix - plus side is the level of control and the sophistication, minus is the very high price and just 16 channels.

A&H - plus side is the excellent EQ, low price, quality and 32 IO ADDA and expandability with an R16. Minus - I could be better looking, but that is a question of choice.

Harrison 950 16-channel - I have never used this thing, but some people do criticise the EQ and the price is fairly high for a small project room box.

But you need to work out what you really need, before jumping the gun!

Sure know what you mean....however each claims to be analog console, i know some disagree that ssl call the matrix a console but It is no?

I mean the Allen & Heath is being sold as an analog console and you agree the Harrison is an analog console.
Surely the SSL in combination with the X rack makes it an analog console.
Am i wrong?

[The Byre]

Yes, but by the time you have bought 16 channels of EQ and 16 channels of whatever else you want, need - and then have expanded the desk to accommodate your growing needs - you might as well have gone out and got an AWS924 and have 'the real thing' so to speak! And if you really want to get to the stage of having a 'proper' desk with 60 channels and full DAW control and all the integrated bells and whistles - the Duality beckons!!!

It's all down to budget! What do you want to spend?

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Yes, but by the time you have bought 16 channels of EQ and 16 channels of whatever else you want, need - and then have expanded the desk to accommodate your growing needs - you might as well have gone out and got an AWS924 and have 'the real thing' so to speak! And if you really want to get to the stage of having a 'proper' desk with 60 channels and full DAW control and all the integrated bells and whistles - the Duality beckons!!!

It's all down to budget! What do you want to spend?

yeah I understand but I can take my time building the SSL matrix you know.
With the AWS I need to come up with like $80k or $100k right away and the way I plan to do it is over time. Build a beast with my own choice of outboard gear.

Is that kind of clear? To begin with I want to spend $30k.
I have already spent close to $50k, so It just takes time.
I usually buy outboard gear bit by bit, so for example this month I might buy a nice pre, then next month a nice compressor, so on and so and build it up this way.
It is more affordable for me this way then just going out and bang $100k on a console.

[Jim@SSL]

The point of the Matrix is that it works with the outboard that you already have. Why pay for mic pres and EQs when you already have your favourite ones in your rack?

On another (somewhat pedantic point I must admit) the Matrix has 2 inputs per channel so is a 32-channel mixer with Pan/Level, and all of the Aux sends can be sourced from either the main or CUE buses.

As The Byre says, these are 3 different beasts. Maybe you are answering your own question; if the goal is "to purchase a console that can grow with my studio over the years, sort of the centre piece if you will that will be the hub to all my outboard and my DAW" then only one of the 3 products you mentioned is designed to be just that. Buy the one that best suits your workflow, you'll probably not be massively disappointed with any of them.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Yes, but by the time you have bought 16 channels of EQ and 16 channels of whatever else you want, need - and then have expanded the desk to accommodate your growing needs - you might as well have gone out and got an AWS924 and have 'the real thing' so to speak! And if you really want to get to the stage of having a 'proper' desk with 60 channels and full DAW control and all the integrated bells and whistles - the Duality beckons!!!

It's all down to budget! What do you want to spend?

Oh I do not think i will ever need 60 channels, especially if I purchase the Matrix.
Do you run a console dude?

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

The point of the Matrix is that it works with the outboard that you already have. Why pay for mic pres and EQs when you already have your favourite ones in your rack?

On another (somewhat pedantic point I must admit) the Matrix has 2 inputs per channel so is a 32-channel mixer with Pan/Level, and all of the Aux sends can be sourced from either the main or CUE buses.

As The Byre says, these are 3 different beasts. Maybe you are answering your own question; if the goal is "to purchase a console that can grow with my studio over the years, sort of the centre piece if you will that will be the hub to all my outboard and my DAW" then only one of the 3 products you mentioned is designed to be just that. Buy the one that best suits your workflow, you'll probably not be massively disappointed with any of them.

Hey Jim watched all your Vids on you tube! Nice work
So is the one of the 3 the SSL?
Because this is how i felt today after running the demo.

Yes I think I am answering my own question, but it is also nice to seek some advice.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

The point of the Matrix is that it works with the outboard that you already have. Why pay for mic pres and EQs when you already have your favourite ones in your rack?

On another (somewhat pedantic point I must admit) the Matrix has 2 inputs per channel so is a 32-channel mixer with Pan/Level, and all of the Aux sends can be sourced from either the main or CUE buses.

As The Byre says, these are 3 different beasts. Maybe you are answering your own question; if the goal is "to purchase a console that can grow with my studio over the years, sort of the centre piece if you will that will be the hub to all my outboard and my DAW" then only one of the 3 products you mentioned is designed to be just that. Buy the one that best suits your workflow, you'll probably not be massively disappointed with any of them.

Oh I plan on buying more because Currently I have no SSL eqs.
By the way for the record I have the X desk, love and love it, great bit of kit, but think the Matrix fits what I need in my studio.

[The Byre]

Then buy that! I'm all for boosting the UK economy - 11% fall in standard of living in 12 months and more to come as there has been a 20% fall in GDP in the same time - so we need your custom!!!

But you highlight a real problem for the typical home studio professional - there just is nothing there by way of an expandable, reasonably priced system that has proper DAW control, but within an analogue signal path. The AWS series is not expandable, the A&H is fantastic, but it is fantastic for what it is.

I suppose that if I were in the market today, I would either get a Duality, or get a vintage classic and turn it into a hybrid.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Then buy that! I'm all for boosting the UK economy - 11% fall in standard of living in 12 months and more to come as there has been a 20% fall in GDP in the same time - so we need your custom!!!

But you highlight a real problem for the typical home studio professional - there just is nothing there by way of an expandable, reasonably priced system that has proper DAW control, but within an analogue signal path. The AWS series is not expandable, the A&H is fantastic, but it is fantastic for what it is.

I suppose that if I were in the market today, I would either get a Duality, or get a vintage classic and turn it into a hybrid.

Ha ha ha! Love your work, and Sir I am happy to help the UK out.
I must admit i love SSL gear, after buying the ssl x desk it kind of made appreciate quality, so I guess I am slightly biased maybe.
Yes the A&H is beautiful, and I am still indeed tempted.

Expansion, yes my point exactly their really is not much their in terms of expansion.
And in term analog consoles, well just have a look at the market.
Feel sorry for the poor guy that has to go through what i have gone through in the past few weeks, it is a nightmare.
Such a big gap in the market.
They are not cheap either may I add, I was looking at an API for $60k here in Australia, and we pay more for everything.
$60K, I just could not justify that.
Maybe one day.

[papabodo]

hi,

I am in a similar situation,
for me the problem with the matrix is , how to integrate easily more than 16 hardware Eqs/comps via inserts into it, and still only 16 fader are a minus for
me concerning mixdown.

So far, I plan with a Specl Lilo , 24 fader plus 8 via expander, completely analogue, high end and everything balanced.
but only if you dont need DAW control features....

regards

bodo

[techneek]

Get the Matrix. Get the X Rack and you can choose what kind of SSL console you want. The modules come in 2 flavors of their best consoles. Or, get a 500 rack and load it with GR/Harrison 32 eq's and you got yourself a Harrison with Daw. Or, load the 500 rack with API eq's and comps and you got yourself a API 1608 with DAW control. Or get a API 200l rack and load it with 235/225's and you got yourself a API Legacy or Vision with DAW control. Or go for standards, LA2A, 1176, Bricasti's, you will never outgrow this rig. A&H is ok and so is the Harrison, but make sure that's the sound you are going for because that's the eq you have to live with. And don't forget the SSL converters. Easy choice if you ask me!!

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by papabodo

hi,

I am in a similar situation,
for me the problem with the matrix is , how to integrate easily more than 16 hardware Eqs/comps via inserts into it, and still only 16 fader are a minus for
me concerning mixdown.

So far, I plan with a Specl Lilo , 24 fader plus 8 via expander, completely analogue, high end and everything balanced.
but only if you dont need DAW control features....

regards

bodo

Hey Bobo, yeah its tough.
So you have decided against the Matrix completely then? 16 faders seems to be not a problem for me.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by techneek

Get the Matrix. Get the X Rack and you can choose what kind of SSL console you want. The modules come in 2 flavors of their best consoles. Or, get a 500 rack and load it with GR/Harrison 32 eq's and you got yourself a Harrison with Daw. Or, load the 500 rack with API eq's and comps and you got yourself a API 1608 with DAW control. Or get a API 200l rack and load it with 235/225's and you got yourself a API Legacy or Vision with DAW control. Or go for standards, LA2A, 1176, Bricasti's, you will never outgrow this rig. A&H is ok and so is the Harrison, but make sure that's the sound you are going for because that's the eq you have to live with. And don't forget the SSL converters. Easy choice if you ask me!!

Hey thanks, you have allot of useful points here.

Sorry what do you mean the SSL Convertors?

[papabodo]

Hi Antoine8,

yes I have decided against the matrix for the reason mentioned.

If you are sure, you dont want to integrate mor than 16 outboard gear via insert, and 16 faders will be enough for the next 10 years, its probably a good choice for you.

regards
Bodo

[techneek]

Originally Posted by Antoine8

Hey thanks, you have allot of useful points here.

Sorry what do you mean the SSL Convertors?

Sorry, meant to spell it converters. I use the SSL Alpha Link with Madiextreme 64 card. 24 I/O and super clean and fast. I use alot of outboard gear and when I choose a pre-amp or eq or comp or whatever, I don't want the converter to add anything to it. I want my chosen flavor to stay that way. And I don't find myself doing the buffer rate dance anymore, I track and mix at 64. I'm lovin it!

[Jim@SSL]

just a thought (or two)...

Yes, the Matrix has 16 floating insert points which can be recallable. However, there's nothing stopping you connecting these to a patchbay if you need a bigger system. You could even go out of your DA converters into a patchbay which goes to your massive collection of outboard and then into the Matrix. Or add an X-Patch or two to expand the system.

On mixdown you can get 40 inputs to the Mix Bus on the Matrix.

The best thing to do in all of this is to get a proper demo. If anyone needs a point in the right direction drop me a PM and I'll put you in touch with someone local who can help out with a proper loan/demo. This piece of advice holds true for any if the products mentioned. Trust your own ears rather than the opinions of people in a forum!!!

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Jim@SSL

just a thought (or two)...

Yes, the Matrix has 16 floating insert points which can be recallable. However, there's nothing stopping you connecting these to a patchbay if you need a bigger system. You could even go out of your DA converters into a patchbay which goes to your massive collection of outboard and then into the Matrix. Or add an X-Patch or two to expand the system.

On mixdown you can get 40 inputs to the Mix Bus on the Matrix.

The best thing to do in all of this is to get a proper demo. If anyone needs a point in the right direction drop me a PM and I'll put you in touch with someone local who can help out with a proper loan/demo. This piece of advice holds true for any if the products mentioned. Trust your own ears rather than the opinions of people in a forum!!!

Thanks Jim for your thoughts!

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by techneek

Sorry, meant to spell it converters. I use the SSL Alpha Link with Madiextreme 64 card. 24 I/O and super clean and fast. I use alot of outboard gear and when I choose a pre-amp or eq or comp or whatever, I don't want the converter to add anything to it. I want my chosen flavor to stay that way. And I don't find myself doing the buffer rate dance anymore, I track and mix at 64. I'm lovin it!

Nice

[tomdarude]

what about recall speed?

if it´s all about recall speed and integration: SSL Matrix

if it´s about sound quality and efficient daw workflow (and not PT):
Speck LILO 24ch. + SmartAV Tango ...that´s a hard to beat combination

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Im in the same boat here. It has been difficult to reach a solution...
Yes my main concern about the matrix was the same. i already have more than 16 preamps and way more than 8 stereo Eqs/comps, plus Fxs, etc.. And, in the future, I want to keep on adding more outboard not less so i would end up having to manually patch, as I already do. So one of the main benefits of the matrix ( the matrix it self!) would be of none or poor use...
But there are other limitation that are making me unsure of to buy it or not, like the small bus and auxs counts. Something as simple as getting your individual drum tracks processed in the console, routed to a bus for further processing and then sent to an aux for reverb ( a very simple job for a DAW) is a complex thing to do...the db25 connectors dont help in this matter.
So I also thought about the LiLo, but the thing is that here you enter the no recall territory and for that there are a zillion contenders, from old super consoles to brand new Apis. Ok I could leave all the faders of the LiLo at unity, well so now its just a summing box, so theres even better and cheaper contenders there...apis, thermionics, even x-racks...Damn, back to Protools

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Originally Posted by tomdarude

what about recall speed?

if it´s all about recall speed and integration: SSL Matrix

if it´s about sound quality and efficient daw workflow (and not PT):
Speck LILO 24ch. + SmartAV Tango ...that´s a hard to beat combination

I agree about matrix recall and integration.

Looking at the LiLo,as an alternative, it seems pretty much the same as the Matrix, in terms of features and routing possibilities, but just without recall and Daw control. Does it really sound better than the SSL? Its not the first time I see someone talking about this...Why is that you consider LILO´s sound quality better than the Matrix? That would be a crucial factor for me...more than the Daw control itself as I already have that to some point...

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

Im in the same boat here. It has been difficult to reach a solution...
Yes my main concern about the matrix was the same. i already have more than 16 preamps and way more than 8 stereo Eqs/comps, plus Fxs, etc.. And, in the future, I want to keep on adding more outboard not less so i would end up having to manually patch, as I already do. So one of the main benefits of the matrix ( the matrix it self!) would be of none or poor use...
But there are other limitation that are making me unsure of to buy it or not, like the small bus and auxs counts. Something as simple as getting your individual drum tracks processed in the console, routed to a bus for further processing and then sent to an aux for reverb ( a very simple job for a DAW) is a complex thing to do...the db25 connectors dont help in this matter.
So I also thought about the LiLo, but the thing is that here you enter the no recall territory and for that there are a zillion contenders, from old super consoles to brand new Apis. Ok I could leave all the faders of the LiLo at unity, well so now its just a summing box, so theres even better and cheaper contenders there...apis, thermionics, even x-racks...Damn, back to Protools

Lets face it no matter what it seems both you and I are going to have to settle on something.

I have outweighed all pros and cons and still the matrix is infront for me in terms of total recall, and the integration with X rack gives me that SSL and eq and compression I have been wanting for so long.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that no matter which way I go I will eventually hit a road block, but I am sure I can overcome it.
You are right their is nothing stopping you from going to a patch bay.

I have tested a few consoles now and researched many but I keep coming back to the Matrix for total recall, I do not have an assistant that can write down all my paramaters after each project end, and damn I am not going to do it each time that would drive me crazy i think.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by tomdarude

what about recall speed?

if it´s all about recall speed and integration: SSL Matrix

if it´s about sound quality and efficient daw workflow (and not PT):
Speck LILO 24ch. + SmartAV Tango ...that´s a hard to beat combination

Agree brother

[Antoine8]

Guys can some one with experince in consoles help me answer a few questions please.
And do not bother making smart a$#@ comments, as I am still learning and just want to know a simple way to integrate a console to my studio.

I understand the DAW, as this is what I have been using for the past 5 years or so. And what I am trying to do is take everything I see in my DAW or in virtual and simply take it OTB.

So reverbs, compressors, FX, synths, drum machines, and everything else that goes with mixing, I have most the outboard gear this is not the issue.

My recent issue is based around How many channels is really going to be enough for me?

My concern is I may end up purchasing a console which is to small, as it is always beter to have an extra 8 channels rather then the other way around.

My current projects in my DAW have about 20 tracks or so, maybe a little less.

I am now starting to think a 16 channel console is not going to be enough, however I could be wrong.

Better to be thinking this way prior to making a purchase. Any advice I would greatly appreciate here.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

matrix has 40 on mixdown. Your DAw sessions are about 20! wow. Mine are usually around 120! Im currently recording and mixing a big album with each song going way over 140! Mix that on a console! I know, I know, you just route the busses and its ok.

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

matrix has 40 on mixdown. Your DAw sessions are about 20! wow. Mine are usually around 120! Im currently recording and mixing a big album with each song going way over 140! Mix that on a console! I know, I know, you just route the busses and its ok.

Ha ha 120 damn, is it pop music or rock you make?

No pun intended my tracks are minimal cause I make minimal music.
Less is more my friend, the less tracks I have the better my music sounds i find.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

Originally Posted by Antoine8

Ha ha 120 damn, is it pop music or rock you make?

No pun intended my tracks are minimal cause I make minimal music.
Less is more my friend, the less tracks I have the better my music sounds i find.

Oh I have no doubt. Less is more. I envy you. i wish I could mix only 20 tracks...Modern pop/rock goes to 60/80 easy. some projects over 100. For 20 tracks the matrix would serve you pretty good I guess

[Antoine8]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

Oh I have no doubt. Less is more. I envy you. i wish I could mix only 20 tracks...Modern pop/rock goes to 60/80 easy. some projects over 100. For 20 tracks the matrix would serve you pretty good I guess

Ha ha, I could not even begin to imagine mixing 120 tracks plus.

Like I said I use constraints on track numbers, but hey i do not produce pop I have heard that allot of pop tracks run into 100 plus tracks?

So are you on Protools HD with that many tracks?

Yeah I keep thinking other consoles like the Audient 8024 which i just started looking at has 24 channels, plus i have thought about others but no matter which way I go i am faced with road blocks which always bring me back to the Matrix.

Its all to much this console shopping around, sometimes I scream and say uhh hell ill Just stay ITB and that will solve it all