AKG vs Mojave vs Royer

[jrod9900]

So, I am really surprised by some reults I've gathered over the past two days of drum tracking...

First of all I would like to say that I've been spending more time recording and playing music than just talking about it. I think that admitting you have a problem is the first step... ;-)

Anyways, on with my accounts. I threw up some different mics on overheads to try some new ideas.

I started out with the ol' tryusty 414s on overheads for a metal drum session. They sounded good. I was happy. I had Royer R101s set up for rooms in blumlein... Not so happy. I was really let down that they were a little harsh especially on cymbals. They were back about 5-6ft off the kit about 5 ft in the air.

Sooo, I threw up my Cascade Fatheads on rooms. Much better... Much smoother... Def darker, but it was a pleasing dark. It was frustrating considering I had a $1600 pair vs a $300 pair of mics.

Next, the owner of the studio wanted to try the Royers on OHs. I wanted to too, so we did it...

Ummm, not happy... They were even harsher on OHs and the toms just didn't sound natural. Maybe I'm too accustomed to condensers on OHs, but I really wanted to like the Royers.

Now I will say that the Royers could maybe be used for a vintage Black Keys type sound, but I'd have to hear them in context. They def didn't work for metal and rock. We tried the Royers in both spaced pair and in blumlein ove r the center of the kit to try and get more of the kit. Not much difference... Soooo let down.

Soooo, next I took my Mojave 201 and threw it up as a mono center OH with another 414 in the same place. I see why the 201s are gaining so much ground. It was definitely brighter, thicker, and punchier than the 414s. I'm not dogging 414s at all, they are a true workhorse mic, but both the studio owner and I agreed that the Mojave definitely sounded better.

I'm gonna be picking up another 201 this week. It will probably become my go-to OH mic. The 414s will still be nice on some things, but the 201s will give me a thicker drum sound.

On another note, I LOVE the Royer R101 on electric guitars. It flat out slays in front of a cabinet. Haven't tried on acoustic or vox yet. I bet it would be amazing on strings (violin through double bass).

Hope this helps somebody. I've been searching for more info on the 201 and 101, but I haven't founf quite as much as I would like...especially comparing to 414s.

Back to work now...

Jrod

[jrod9900]

BTW, we tried the Royers as overheads 2 different times in different positions for those who are interested. One kit was a Pearl Masters birch set up for metal. Another was a Pearl something with probably the best Pearl snare I've ever heard. the second kit sounded amazing. So I was really let down that I couldn't get the Royers to capture that. Both the Mojaves and 414s got a beautiful sound on the second kit especially with the snare... Can't wait to use that snare again!!!

[Jan1973]

If you have a pair of Oktava 012 available, give them a few shots (spaced, XY, with the different capsules). You might like them even more...

I use them all the time for metal drums. And I also have AKGs of all kinds available...

[Sean Sullivan]

How high are your ceilings? I wouldn't use ribbons for overheads unless you have 15' or higher ceiling or you are going to get weird reflections from the ceiling that are going to cause phase problems. Or, put a big, thick cloud over the drums to suck all that stuff up.

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by Jan1973

If you have a pair of Oktava 012 available, give them a few shots (spaced, XY, with the different capsules). You might like them even more...

I use them all the time for metal drums. And I also have AKGs of all kinds available...

Jan, there are some Oktavas available. I used a pair at another studio (or the owner had them up already) and thought they were a little bit harsh. I don't remember what models they were. I tend to like LDCs a bit more for the slower transients. I'll definitely try them though. Next session I will throw them up beside my Mojaves. I like to hear the real A/B on the same takes in the same position. If you like them over the 414s, they must be pretty good.

JROD

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by Sean Sullivan

How high are your ceilings? I wouldn't use ribbons for overheads unless you have 15' or higher ceiling or you are going to get weird reflections from the ceiling that are going to cause phase problems. Or, put a big, thick cloud over the drums to suck all that stuff up.

Good point, Sean. I did take that into consideration when listening. The ceilings were about 10 ft in this studio and the mics were around 7ft up. I was wondering if some of it was reflections from the drop ceiling. It didn't seem like it was the traditional phase, as I could certainly find my center point and not that dizzying feeling, but it was very thin... The studio owner agreed as well, and he seems to be very knowledgeable about his stuff.

I would like to try them in a room with higher ceilings, but I don't know when that will be... Have you had experience with the 101s in that case?

One of the reasons I'm not sure it wasn't the ceiling is because we tried them on rooms as well with similar characteristics... yet we had a pair of Fatheads in the same spot that sounded wonderful... both are figure 8s. So, that leads me to believe it isn't the pattern and room that is the biggest problem.

I think these mics just had a mid presence that makes them amazing for guitars, but I just don't think they are going to be a great drum mic. Kick was awesome with it though! Huge sound!

JROD

[ShinyBox]

Originally Posted by Sean Sullivan

How high are your ceilings? I wouldn't use ribbons for overheads unless you have 15' or higher ceiling or you are going to get weird reflections from the ceiling that are going to cause phase problems. Or, put a big, thick cloud over the drums to suck all that stuff up.

Maybe you wouldn't, but I've seen many records tracked with ribbons on overheads with < 9 foot ceilings, and come out sounding great.

YMMV

ju

[Tejan]

I've used 101s as oh a handful of times in a >15' ceiling-- I wouldnt describe them as thin or harsh. If anything they were a smidge dark, but still natural sounding. I wasn't recording metal though, so my results may not apply to your situation. I've tried fatheads as oh too and thought they were dark...good for another project at another time. Both ribbons are great on guitar cabs especially combined with a brighter mic.

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by Tejan

I've used 101s as oh a handful of times in a >15' ceiling-- I wouldnt describe them as thin or harsh. If anything they were a smidge dark, but still natural sounding. I wasn't recording metal though, so my results may not apply to your situation. I've tried fatheads as oh too and thought they were dark...good for another project at another time. Both ribbons are great on guitar cabs especially combined with a brighter mic.

Yeah, I agree, I love both on guitars. As for the Fatheads, I haven't tried them on OHs yet. It's actually on my to-do list though!

JROD

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by ShinyBox

Maybe you wouldn't, but I've seen many records tracked with ribbons on overheads with < 9 foot ceilings, and come out sounding great.

YMMV

ju

Ju,

Have you tried the 101s on overheads? I figured you would probably have a good insight on this. Like I said, I tried in 3 different positions on the kit. Couldn't get much of a change. Even with the Royers and the Cascades side by side on rooms, there was an amazing amount of difference with the Cascades coming out on top by far. I keep trying to think of things to point to user error, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

I really want to love the Royers... I do, I do, I do... I haven't tried any of the Shiny Box stuff. I hear a lot of good things though.

I honestly don't care about the brand... I just want it to sound great!

JROD

[IceWood Studios]

I find that royers work best when they are just 3-3.5 feet above a kit - all the nice tone is there when they are close, and just looses it when backed off - I have pairs of 121,122 and sf24V, all have a similar behaviour

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by IceWood Studios

I find that royers work best when they are just 3-3.5 feet above a kit - all the nice tone is there when they are close, and just looses it when backed off - I have pairs of 121,122 and sf24V, all have a similar behaviour

Well these weren't but about 2-3' above the kit. I certainly couldn't see another foot to foot and a half making that much difference with the sound I had. I don't know. I feel like I want to try the SFs in similar placement just to see where they sit.

When we tried them last night, it was very close to where I've seen Michael Wagener, Ross Hogarth, and others place them. I don't know...

Have you tried the 101s at all?

JROD

[jrod9900]

FWIW, I can't find any audio clips of the R101s on overheads anywhere. I would really like to find some to see if it's just my placement or what...

JROD

[ShinyBox]

This is really about choosing tools that work for you and your song. Maybe the 414's are the right choice for that kit in that room.

Don't beat yourself up about not liking a microphone on a particular source. That's why there are a whole bunch of microphones out there.

You may decide they just don't live on drums for you. If they slay on guitar cabinets in your experience, then you've got a great tool.

Other ribbon microphones will certainly respond differently than the 101 or the Fathead. Whether better or worse is a matter of opinion =).

I chimed in about the "have to have high ceilings" as I've seen it mentioned a couple times, and would hate for people to think that's some sort of "rule".

I'm obviously a fan of ribbon mics, but when a dynamic or condenser is the right tool, I use it. I don't even think twice about it.

Regards

ju

[jrod9900]

Yeah, I've gotten that response on high ceilings as well. Glad to know that may be another 'slut myth.

I guess as long as we keep moving forward, right??? Lol

Cheers!

Jrod

[Sean Sullivan]

I don't think reflections are a "myth" and are something to be aware of. My experience with ribbons in general as overheads (Coles, Royer) is in a small room they don't sound so great

[IceWood Studios]

no, I've not tried the 101 yet - the sf is defo my favourite of the bunch on overhead, with the 122 out front or as room mic.
I also think sometimes too much is made off HAVING to have tall ceilings, none of my places over the last 8 years have been much over 7/8 foot tall in the live room, and have always got good tones and kit sounds - clouds help a great deal, but not always necessary - totally depends on the sound of the band though, and having some good verbs to open things out a bit if needed

[Sean Sullivan]

That said, my room is rather long, so you could try them as a spaced pair in front of the kit if your room is set up the same. That sound nice for rock stuff

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by Sean Sullivan

I don't think reflections are a "myth" and are something to be aware of. My experience with ribbons in general as overheads (Coles, Royer) is in a small room they don't sound so great

Yeah, I didn't mean it as a myth per reflections... I meant it that it was a myth that you couldn't get good sounds in a room shorter than 12'.

I would have liked to try them out deeper, but kinda ran out of real estate with the placement of the kit. Go figure.

Plus, I was really diggin' the dark sound of the FatHeads. If it ain't broke... lol

We were up to 19 mics and phase wasn't a problem, so I didn't want to break the streak...

JROD

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

I was wondering if some of it was reflections from the drop ceiling. It didn't seem like it was the traditional phase, as I could certainly find my center point and not that dizzying feeling, but it was very thin... The studio owner agreed as well, and he seems to be very knowledgeable about his stuff.

JROD

It's not going to be stereo phasing you're listening for, your two mics may well be in phase with each other, it's going to be comb filtering on each mic that you're listening for. Finding the right height ratio between the floor, ceiling and drums can be tricky.

IMO, if you've got a great sound with the cascades, then run with it. If the Royers aren't doing it for you on OHs, then don't waste a lot of time trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just because the square peg cost a lot of money. I'm sure those Royers will justify themselves on some other application. If not, sell them and move on.

[jrod9900]

I really don't think it was comb filtering. I really think the R101 just may not be a drum mic (minus kick). Oh well, the Mojave 201 more than made up for it. Plus the R101 kills on guitars! Soooo, I guess I can work with that!

Jrod

[TRJanuary]

I have NEVER had any luck with ANY ribbon on drum overheads, UNLESS I was specifically going for a softer, or more "old fashioned" sound.

I have mixed metal records where ribbons were used on the OH, it was very challenging to get a sound that the band actually liked.

A good friend uses a pair of fatheads in our room, about 7-8 feet out in front with good results for a more room-ish sound.

EDIT: full disclosure: I was a drummer long before engineering, and the 414EB is probably my desert island mic.

[jrod9900]

I ended up using 3 Fatheads for rooms. Their content and tone was definitely superior to the Royers for rooms. I know Michael Wagener uses the SF24 on OHs for like everything. I guess I thought the R101s would be in the same ballpark. I guess I was wrong.

Looks like electric guitars for the Royers it is!

JROD

[Puffpastry]

If the Royer R101 is like my R122, the ribbon is offset inside the mic, so the back side of the mic actually has a brighter response than if the mic label is facing the source. However, the rear of the mic cannot handle as high an SPL as the front.