Tracking notes 28hz-40hz

[piglet]

Hi all,

What kind of monitoring system do you find works best when TRACKING notes in the 27.5-41hz range? (Lowest octave of piano/keyboard, 4/5 string bass guitar). When I mix I use some light eq and compression and it seems to solve the issue a bit but I track uncompressed. Bass Guitar I like to use a DI: Usually REDDI or add a second Sansamp. Keyboard is usually MIDI/USB.

My regular speakers have a range that go down to 40hz and are the Dynaudio BM6A's. A lot of the music I record requires frequencies below this range. Will adding a sub help? I find that when tracking bass guitar/keyboard even at soft volumes whenever they play below 40hz I get either:

1) Speaker rumbling/fart noise or SPLAT sounds
2) I have to crank the speakers up in volume to actually hear the notes.

It's kind of frustrating since I could buy a cheap bass guitar amplifier for a few hundred bucks that has a 12" speaker and be able to hear these notes fine...I haven't encountered 2 high end monitors that can TRACK uncompressed notes in this register cleanly...

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Waltz Mastering]

It gets a little dicey trying to reproduce a fundamental frequency cleanly below 40 Hz without having a full range system. One thing you can do is create some saturation on the overtone or eq the harmonic overtone one octave up. Sine wave bass is a killer. I've had songs were you could hear the low B clearly on my system, but any consumer system it disappears.

[Kiwi]

Silly question time, but why not use a bass amp for monitoring while tracking?

I also find it odd that so-called "high-end" monitor speakers are really crap for real-world bass uncompressed bass signal. Cheap little home sub woofers and little bass amps do a far better job.

One reason for this, as far as I know, is that speaker designers like to use ports and vents for "efficiency" - moving volume of air and compensating for cost-cutting, weight-saving, profit-maximizing design compromises.

These resonant ports are like a fake EQ trick that allows them to squeeze a bit more ink out of those eye-candy damned lie charts that claim the ruler flat DC-to-light specs that we all demand to see.

So when hit with a real-world analog signals, the speakers excurse too far and the cheap little MDF cabinets rattle to pieces.

Even my Dynaudio BM15 passives, which are pretty good, are afflicted by this. I have a Mesa 15" cab if I want to give my bass a workout.

[superwack]

A subwoofer (or two if you need more volume) would help... as would having a 42+ foot room in order to allow the waveform space.

[piglet]

Are the Dynaudio BM15A's good monitors? They sure are expensive and I've read that there is serious quality control and potential buzzing issues with them...

[RogerFoote]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Silly question time, but why not use a bass amp for monitoring while tracking?

I also find it odd that so-called "high-end" monitor speakers are really crap for real-world bass uncompressed bass signal. Cheap little home sub woofers and little bass amps do a far better job.

One reason for this, as far as I know, is that speaker designers like to use ports and vents for "efficiency" - moving volume of air and compensating for cost-cutting, weight-saving, profit-maximizing design compromises.

These resonant ports are like a fake EQ trick that allows them to squeeze a bit more ink out of those eye-candy damned lie charts that claim the ruler flat DC-to-light specs that we all demand to see.

So when hit with a real-world analog signals, the speakers excurse too far and the cheap little MDF cabinets rattle to pieces.

Even my Dynaudio BM15 passives, which are pretty good, are afflicted by this. I have a Mesa 15" cab if I want to give my bass a workout.

+1

Also using a bass amp rig to record synth bass vs direct... Makes it so real.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by RogerFoote

+1

Also using a bass amp rig to record synth bass vs direct... Makes it so real.

Do you know if I would be able to use just a bass cabinet instead of combo amp or amp with head?

I'd be using the TRS "THRU" on the REDDI to go into the bass cab.

[RogerFoote]

Originally Posted by piglet

Do you know if I would be able to use just a bass cabinet instead of combo amp or amp with head?

I'd be using the TRS "THRU" on the REDDI to go into the bass cab.

You need an amp... I use a 450W bass head and a 2 cabinet stack, 4x 10" and 1X 15", mic'd up with an EV RE320.
I have 2 of these stacks, each with an EV RE 320, one for synth (Nord Lead / bass pedals) and the other for the bass guitar.

rf

[henge]

How's your room?

[piglet]

Originally Posted by RogerFoote

You need an amp... I use a 450W bass head and a 2 cabinet stack, 4x 10" and 1X 15", mic'd up with an EV RE320.
I have 2 of these stacks, each with an EV RE 320, one for synth (Nord Lead / bass pedals) and the other for the bass guitar.

rf

I have the REDDI DI...I really DON'T want to have to buy an amp...seems like a big waste of money.

[RogerFoote]

Originally Posted by piglet

I have the REDDI DI...I really DON'T want to have to buy an amp...seems like a big waste of money.

I have amps because I am a bass player, so easy...
I don't care for DI bass so much, I like a good LD dynamic much, much better for the stuff I do, but that's me... Other people do really well with DI...

Why track with speakers? How about phones? Or connect a bass cab to your monitor amp (if you are not using internally powered monitors, that is)

[piglet]

Originally Posted by RogerFoote

I have amps because I am a bass player, so easy...
I don't care for DI bass so much, I like a good LD dynamic much, much better for the stuff I do, but that's me... Other people do really well with DI...

Why track with speakers? How about phones? Or connect a bass cab to your monitor amp (if you are not using internally powered monitors, that is)

I'm a bass player too but there's no point having an external DI as good as the REDDI and then have an amp as well that's just used to track with. Besides monitors aren't as colored as an amp.

Cans = Don't want to go deaf.

[Kiwi]

I agree that for most modern sounds a good DI like the REDDI is all you need (and use processing to get some space and width if you need it).

Clearly a DI can't drive a high wattage speaker cab ... not sure if you are serious.

You need to be comfortable to track good bass - I find it physically demanding, and I found that latency and bone conduction and other factors really bugged me when tracking bass. Headphones aren't much fun, and I think you need to be able to jump around a bit. And blasting uncompressed bass through good monitors is likely to break them or at least cause annoy resonances.

I understand your pain. But for me the answer is a bass amp - or in my case I didn't want to buy a bass amp I wasn't going to track, so I just got a decent bass cab (much cheaper) and I drive it with whatever amp I have around. Even my little Epiphone Valve Junior head does a good job. I have a Linn hifi amp that I use Sansamp pedals with, and that effectively gives me a dual mono or stereo guitar rig that can be used with whatever cabs, including bass.

A cheap bass amp isn't a bad idea. I used to have a Roland Bass cube many years ago ... they were fun. At a place where I play there are some cheap solid state Hiwatt amps for guitar and bass, and they are simple and sound really good. There must be plenty of options ... and while I wouldn't really want to record them, I would gladly use them for practicing and monitoring bass.

You next question should probably be which signal splitter to use ...

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I agree that for most modern sounds a good DI like the REDDI is all you need (and use processing to get some space and width if you need it).

Clearly a DI can't drive a high wattage speaker cab ... not sure if you are serious.

You need to be comfortable to track good bass - I find it physically demanding, and I found that latency and bone conduction and other factors really bugged me when tracking bass. Headphones aren't much fun, and I think you need to be able to jump around a bit. And blasting uncompressed bass through good monitors is likely to break them or at least cause annoy resonances.

I understand your pain. But for me the answer is a bass amp - or in my case I didn't want to buy a bass amp I wasn't going to track, so I just got a decent bass cab (much cheaper) and I drive it with whatever amp I have around. Even my little Epiphone Valve Junior head does a good job. I have a Linn hifi amp that I use Sansamp pedals with, and that effectively gives me a dual mono or stereo guitar rig that can be used with whatever cabs, including bass.

A cheap bass amp isn't a bad idea. I used to have a Roland Bass cube many years ago ... they were fun. At a place where I play there are some cheap solid state Hiwatt amps for guitar and bass, and they are simple and sound really good. There must be plenty of options ... and while I wouldn't really want to record them, I would gladly use them for practicing and monitoring bass.

You next question should probably be which signal splitter to use ...

Nah, I'm definitely not tracking through a bass amp. Latency is a result of having not good enough of a computer, nothing more, nothing less.

[Kiwi]

Are you trolling? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt once more ...

I'm not suggesting tracking thru a bass amp. You would be tracking thru your REDDI. But MONITORING thru a bass amp while you do it. Hence the need for a signal split somewhere before your A/D converter.

Anything digital will have latency - including good computers. That's why if you split your signal in the analog domain you can monitor with zero latency.

How good will you play if you are tentatively trying not to damage your studio monitors? If you want to play like Flea, you will be happier with a real amp (whether that is amp and cab or combo doesn't really matter).

If you can't afford a great bass cab you can't destroy, then find a cheap bass amp that you don't mind destroying and just rock out. But all the while, you can be capturing your performance via a quality DI chain.

Next dumb ass thing you say, you go on my ignore list

[natonative]

fair dinkum say i

[ofajen]

One thing to consider is that a sealed speaker cabinet, when critically damped, will roll off at 12 dB per octave below the cabinet cutoff, while room gain down in that region increases level by about that same rate below some frequency. If the cabinet cutoff is down near the point where room gain starts to kick in, you can get pretty flat response down rather low, except for whatever fundamental modes you are fighting in the room. I use sealed speakers for monitoring and even designed and built a sealed bass cabinet for use with my bass amp. Works for me.

Cheers,

Otto

[Companda]

Really, who gives a crap about that low? On a piano you don't really hear the fundamental as much as the overtones, but the way they combine lets you know it is low. Use the overtones as waltz said.

Otherwise amplify your air con or heating system.

[frans]

Originally Posted by ofajen

I use sealed speakers for monitoring and even designed and built a sealed bass cabinet for use with my bass amp.

You want to hear very low notes? Sealed cab with a big enough speaker in a big enough enclosure. It doesn't hurt if it's standing on a spot where the desired wavelength doesn't cancel out because of room acoustics.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Are you trolling? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt once more ...

I'm not suggesting tracking thru a bass amp. You would be tracking thru your REDDI. But MONITORING thru a bass amp while you do it. Hence the need for a signal split somewhere before your A/D converter.

Anything digital will have latency - including good computers. That's why if you split your signal in the analog domain you can monitor with zero latency.

How good will you play if you are tentatively trying not to damage your studio monitors? If you want to play like Flea, you will be happier with a real amp (whether that is amp and cab or combo doesn't really matter).

If you can't afford a great bass cab you can't destroy, then find a cheap bass amp that you don't mind destroying and just rock out. But all the while, you can be capturing your performance via a quality DI chain.

Next dumb ass thing you say, you go on my ignore list

Sorry, I'm not trying to troll. I just feel like if I got a bass amp it would kind of make my DI pointless...

[RogerFoote]

Originally Posted by piglet

I'm a bass player too but there's no point having an external DI as good as the REDDI and then have an amp as well that's just used to track with. Besides monitors aren't as colored as an amp.

Cans = Don't want to go deaf.

Meh, do whatever you want... I thought you were asking?
Bass player without an amp, really?

You might be ok with a DI, lots of people do that, but I can guarantee that a bass cab mic'd with a good mic will be what is needed sometimes... Period.
Unless of course you are the only talent coming into your studio...

Like I was saying, I hear guys using DI all the time and kicking ass, but for me it is this method, a mic, amp, cab and killer basses.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by RogerFoote

Meh, do whatever you want... I thought you were asking?
Bass player without an amp, really?

You might be ok with a DI, lots of people do that, but I can guarantee that a bass cab mic'd with a good mic will be what is needed sometimes... Period.
Unless of course you are the only talent coming into your studio...

Like I was saying, I hear guys using DI all the time and kicking ass, but for me it is this method, a mic, amp, cab and killer basses.

What I'm saying is, if I'm going to DI period why do I want a bass amp just for tracking? Why not track out of monitors that I can use for other instruments??

[gammalord]

Are you the 32Hz guy?

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by piglet

What I'm saying is, if I'm going to DI period why do I want a bass amp just for tracking? Why not track out of monitors that I can use for other instruments??

I give up.

Do what you want to do. Get a sub if your current speakers aren't rocking your world.

I think you still risk damaging them, because studio monitors simply aren't designed to be a bass amp for uncompressed bass.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I give up.

Do what you want to do. Get a sub if your current speakers aren't rocking your world.

I think you still risk damaging them, because studio monitors simply aren't designed to be a bass amp for uncompressed bass.

then how do professionals track bass guitar in a studio?

[Kiwi]

Anyway they want to. Most would want to use their amp. It's very common to mic up a good amp AND DI at the same time.

A good session player can control their dynamics so well that they don't need or want a compressor, and could safely use monitors.

But most bass players benefit from a compressor/limiter in the chain. But you said you like to track uncompressed for some reason ...

Just do what you want. No need to follow what others do. There is no single perfect method to track bass, just as there is no perfect bass tone or the perfect song. Variety is the spice of life.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Anyway they want to. Most would want to use their amp. It's very common to mic up a good amp AND DI at the same time.

A good session player can control their dynamics so well that they don't need or want a compressor, and could safely use monitors.

But most bass players benefit from a compressor/limiter in the chain. But you said you like to track uncompressed for some reason ...

Just do what you want. No need to follow what others do. There is no single perfect method to track bass, just as there is no perfect bass tone or the perfect song. Variety is the spice of life.

Okay, thanks. So sometimes they would use 1 channel for DI and one for Mic'd amp and then blend the signal?

Cheers.

[Kiwi]

Of course. But you already knew that, didn't you? You may need to compensate for latency if you are tracking both amp and DI. This is not just a digital latency thing ... sound traveling through air takes time, and the latency of sound in air can be greater than digital latency. (Something orchestra conductors know all about).

And it's not just a simple time shift either. There can be frequency dependant phase shift too, which is why you can buy boxes from Little Labs and Radial etc that can adjust the phase relationship. But you can use plugins after the fact also.

Do some searches in this site, or google around. The secrets of some of the most amazing bass tracks of all have been fairly well discussed and documented.

Just about every trick in the book has been used at some time. Speakers being used as microphones, microphones many feet away from the cab, multiple DIs, multiple DIs and amps ...

Paul McCartney is one of my bass heros, and he pioneered DI bass straight into the tape deck, and also did doubling and octaving and added synths and a whole bunch of tricks not many people suspected.

[piglet]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Of course. But you already knew that, didn't you? You may need to compensate for latency if you are tracking both amp and DI. This is not just a digital latency thing ... sound traveling through air takes time, and the latency of sound in air can be greater than digital latency. (Something orchestra conductors know all about).

And it's not just a simple time shift either. There can be frequency dependant phase shift too, which is why you can buy boxes from Little Labs and Radial etc that can adjust the phase relationship. But you can use plugins after the fact also.

Do some searches in this site, or google around. The secrets of some of the most amazing bass tracks of all have been fairly well discussed and documented.

Just about every trick in the book has been used at some time. Speakers being used as microphones, microphones many feet away from the cab, multiple DIs, multiple DIs and amps ...

Paul McCartney is one of my bass heros, and he pioneered DI bass straight into the tape deck, and also did doubling and octaving and added synths and a whole bunch of tricks not many people suspected.

I did not know that. Wow, thanks. I had no idea about McCartney. Thank you for your help and time.