Advice about mics and pre's for "Albini" sounding drums

[ChrisTownsend]

I will be tracking some drums next week and the band really likes the sound of the drums on Nirvana's "In Utero".

I've got the following mic pre's to work with:
API 3124+
SCA N72 (4)
UA LA610-mkII

I've got the following mics:
AT4050
Rode K2
Oktava MK012 (2)
sm57 (2)
Audix D2 (2)
Audix D4 (1)
Audix D6 (1)

I obviously don't have the greatest mic locker, but that's what I've got to work with at this point.

I'm currently thinking about the following mic/pre combinations:
Snare Top: SM57 / SCA N72
Snare Bottom: SM57 / API
Kick In: Audix D6 / SCA N72
Kick Out: Rode K2 / API
Rack Tom: Audix D2 / N72
Floor Tom: Audix D4 / N72
Overheads: Oktava MK012 / API
Room Mic: AT4050 / UA LA610 mkII

My tracking room is not very big, so I'm planning putting some delay on the room mic.

Anyone have any advice to offer that doesn't involve me buying more gear?

[DaveUK]

Try room mics in the furthest corners pointing into them !exploit those evil corners if you have them

[ChrisTownsend]

Was already planning on trying the room mic in various extremities of the room, but I definitely wouldn't have thought to try pointing the mics INTO the corners. Sounds interesting, I will give that a try. I definitely have "evil corners" a plenty...

[DaveUK]

Which capsules do you have for the Oktavas ?

WTFDIKA

[ChrisTownsend]

I only have the cardioid capsules for the Oktava mics.

[chevega]

In Utero was recorded at Pachyderm, which has a large, fantastic sounding live room. HOWEVER, the drums for that record were recorded in the studio's kitchen. You can hear it on the record, it sounds like a small, punchy, zingy room.

So, as you have already been advised, experiment with unintuitive mic placement. Also, make sure the drums are well-tuned and sound great before you even put the mics up.

[Sean Sullivan]

I've been archiving Will Oldham/Bonnie 'Prince' Billy/Palace masters and what I've found with the Albini mixes is they are very dynamic...the meters on the tape machine are moving about 15-20dB. So, avoid smashing everything with compressors and let the drums breathe and move the faders/automate instead.

The exact opposite was the case when I achieved some Chris Lord Alge mixes for John Prine last year. I couldn't tell the difference from his 1/2" master and the finished product...those meters didn't move much.

[Fletcher]

If they want the drums to sound like In Utero then the first thing they should do is hire Dave Grohl... or hope the drummer can play like Dave Grohl, and tune the drums like Dave Grohl's drums were tuned.

Originally Posted by ChrisTownsend

Anyone have any advice to offer that doesn't involve me buying more gear?

Absolutely - don't try to chase ghosts... it will frustrate the hell out of you and might disturb the ghost in the process.

Breath deeply and get the best drum sound you can get for the project that fits with the band's sense of aesthetic. Talk to the band, talk to the drummer - make sure you communicate - don't be in a hurry, take your time - get it to the point where everyone is happy with the sound and hope they get a great performance.

If you don't chase ghosts - and the band is worth recording - and can build a fan base... who knows, in 20 years some kid might be posting a question on Gearslutz on how to get the drum sound you're about to record!!

Be relaxed - take your time - get the job done right.

Peace

[DaveUK]

You got a contact for Mr Grohl Fletcher ? :+)
Edit:nice advice after your initial response
WTFDIKA

[DaveUK]

16?

Wtfdika

[skythemusic]

ribbon mics on the room

[Brian Scheffer]

If I were you, I'd try a mono 4050 overhead and use the Oktavas for stereo room. The room sound is really key to the In Utero sound. I'm sure you don't have a live room like Pachyderm's, but you have to make due with what you have. Delaying the rooms mics a bit will help out with that sound.

[audiogeek]

There was another thread on here somewhere by someone who's band worked with Albini. It was at EAR not at Pachyderm, and it was not Dave Grohl, nor his drums, but I seem to remember there being a lot of information about various mics he was using, notes on placement, etc.

So, that may give you something to go on. Band was called Grandfather I think.

Also, I feel like I remember PZM mics being placed on the floor as the main drum 'room' sound.

Honestly, it probably has mostly to do with the room itself, not the mics or where they're placed. I have a big ass room. No matter what mics I use or where I put them, it's still going to sound like a big ass room.

But I digress.

[ChrisTownsend]

@chevega; In doing some research a while back I read about the drums for In Utero being tracked in a kitchen, which gives me hope for my less than ideal tracking room.

I typically check/tune the drummer's kit myself before tracking just to make sure we're getting the best sound possible. I'm having the band set up the kit the day before the session so I have some time to play with mic placement. I've recorded this band once before, and the drummer hit's REALLY hard which is great. She usually nails a song in one take which is awesome.

There are lots of good suggestions here. I will try to go easy on the compression to "let things breathe". Will also try using the Oktava's as stereo room mics and using the AT4050 as an overhead mic.

[DaveUK]

And those oktavas with cardiod caps will have a proximity boost when placed really near surfaces in corners .i know it's "wrong" but it's worked for me in the past to get a fat dark albini'sh room sound from a small room
+1 on the mono overhead
+2 on a female drummer who whacks em and nails takes
Enjoy
But don't be afraid to completely change things upon listening. Get it nailed to tape with the band on board

[Big_Bang]

With a mono OH, do you guys open up the stereo width on the smashed room mics?
How do you achieve a respectable stereo field? I've always wondered.

[RhysC]

Originally Posted by Sean Sullivan

I've been archiving Will Oldham/Bonnie 'Prince' Billy/Palace masters and what I've found with the Albini mixes is they are very dynamic...the meters on the tape machine are moving about 15-20dB. So, avoid smashing everything with compressors and let the drums breathe and move the faders/automate instead.

So jealous.

[DaveUK]

Stereo drums pah! Keep it narrow and solid :-)

[Brian Scheffer]

There'll be no "smashing" of the drum mics for the sound he's after. Perhaps a little light limiting, but that's it. Albini's drums sound huge because of dynamics, lots of ambience, and careful microphone placement. I can tell you from doing a lot of reading on his techniques that compression has little or nothing to do with the huge sounds he gets. I can also tell you with confidence that the sounds he gets aren't due to tracking hard to tape.

[ScumBum]

Electrical Audio w/ Steve Albini | Facebook

heres pics of a session with Steve and his mic placement .


Also a thread about that session .

Electrical Audio Session w/ Steve Albini, Studio A (photos/info)

[bee]

Here's a excellent article with Steve Albini...Steve Albini

[BootsyGraham]

Try putting a slight tape delay on the room mics between 15ms - 30ms. It makes the room sound much larger. I read on the Electrical Audio forums that Albini did this on In Utero as well. You can hear it in Serve the Servants when Grohl clicks his sticks together.

[ChrisTownsend]

Thanks for the links Scumbum. While doing research on this subject I read about Albini's technique of putting room mics on the floor, but I always assumed that meant "on a mic stand, near the floor", not actually laying on the floor. That FB album is great, I would have never thought to put the room mics so close to the kit like that. I will give that a try as well.

@BootsyGraham; I also came across the technique of putting some delay on the room mics while researching this, so I will be doing that as well.

Anyone have any advice about where to use meager supply of preamps? (API 3124+, 4 x SCA N72, and UA LA610)

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by Big_Bang

With a mono OH, do you guys open up the stereo width on the smashed room mics?
How do you achieve a respectable stereo field? I've always wondered.

I've gotten a respectable stereo drum sound by using a mono overhead and panning the close mics more aggressively than I usually would. I don't think we even had a room mic to work with, but I just compensated with reverb, and it came out sounding pretty good. We were gong for a very tight, kind of 80's drum sound so it worked.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by BootsyGraham

Try putting a slight tape delay on the room mics between 15ms - 30ms. It makes the room sound much larger. I read on the Electrical Audio forums that Albini did this on In Utero as well. You can hear it in Serve the Servants when Grohl clicks his sticks together.

That's what he did when I worked with him, and you can hear it on a lot of his recordings. I asked him why he did that, and he said the room was rather small, and so he wanted to push the room mics further away by delaying them. Clever fella. This was late 80's and we used a pair of "full bandwidth" digital delays. No idea what he's into now.

** edit - I also vaguely remember some omni mics about a millimeter from the floor, basically doing a boundary layer/pzm kind of thing**

[mnentwich]

As said before let everything breathe. An Austrian band produced an album a while back with him at Electrical Audio, and it's this Albini "signature" sound all the way. I love it.

a lot of room on the drums (and everything else in fact)
Valina - Mehrklang - YouTube

[ljona]

Did Albini using Neve (-ish) pre on drums?
Maybe you want to use the API on sner top, kick in and toms
´cause it´s faster and punchier and the SCA N72 low end on kick out and OH?
Might work better but maybe that´s not what you´re after.
I have the SCA and used the API - like this and it works great.

[toolskid]

record it dry and trigger the room and/or ambient mics from an appropriately matched and tuned kit in BFD2 from the DLX expansion - that'll probably push you in the right direction if you're trying to match sounds...

I preferred fletcher's advice tho to be honest!!!