Are they starting to get it on "the other side" (loudness war)

[respirator]

Interesting read: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articl...nd-forever.htm

Perhaps a bit inprecise in the technical detail, but a good effort!

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by respirator

Interesting read: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articl...nd-forever.htm

Perhaps a bit inprecise in the technical detail, but a good effort!

Pity he confuses "loud" with the technical term "dynamic". He says, "music sounds more dynamic when you play it louder". Well, it's true that because of the psychoacoustics of playing it louder, the transient impact will be greater and it can even seem more dynamic.

I just wish that more people would realize that turning it up on the playback is a lot better-sounding than turning it up so much in the mastering that it sounds squashed, crunchy, undynamic, and with wimpy bass!

[kellyd]

Bob, Thanks. I wish more hi profile MEs would stand up and tell it like it is.

[thenoiseflower]

Originally Posted by keenly

Most just care about $!

HOWEVER some have actually integrity and love for music.

STEVE HOFFMAN is the best! He would NEVER hyper-compress an album even if he was asked to.

ME such as brian gardner, tom baker, vlado meller and marcusson do not care about quality. They do not have passion and love for the music they are involved with. I find it disgusting!

Really? Tell me more

IMO Marcussen gets some of the best projects and Doesnt **** them up too much.

Autolux, Jerry Lee Lewis, Wolfmother, Paul McCartney, Anna Nalick

yeah, terrible.....

[danasti]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Pity he confuses "loud" with the technical term "dynamic".

I just wish that more people would realize that turning it up on the playback is a lot better

Actually, he does go on to say exactly that. I believe he was intending to say, "instead of compressing it just let the user turn the volume knob up - it sounds better and more dynamic..."

He admits toward the end that he's just learning about all of this and I truely admire the fact that he's putting an effort towards understanding this problem and sharing this with his readers.

He comes at it from a personal perscpective with albums that he and his readers know, which I also think is fantastic. Sometimes the average listener or reader is confused by the terminology and don't see how it relates to them.

[max cooper]

I agree with that. What record company is gonna listen to a bunch of AEs or MEs?

But if the consumers would start to revolt...

[Acoustic Cloud]

You know, if the loudness-compression thing was like computer technology, it would make more sense to chase, and/or adhere to it.

But its not!

[allencollins]

The loudness wars of the late 90's early 2000's
are kinda like what digital reverb was in the late 80's

You listen to some 80's records today and it's a joke.
They are so washed out and flooded with 'large hall'
on everything.

In ten years many cd's recorded during the 'squash' era
are going to sound even worse than the do now

many mastering engineers should be ashamed

[7 Hz]

It's funny occasionally we will hear someone say complainers are sentimental fools, wishing for the old days, and also double standard because many of us like roughed up non-perfect recordings and ample compression, but hate smashed L2 stuff.

Then I see the number of complaints made by many different people regarding this, different music tastes, different roles, and I think we are right, some craziness *is* happening with our audio.

I like Bob Katz idea of RMS standards. In fact, I think audio engineering as an overall profession is a joke today because we don't have a standard.

Really seriously, the AES and whomever else should stand up and be counted, and at least offer a damn standard to be followed. Imagine the benefits of a level sonic playing field instead of this race to the top (bottom). No more consumers complaining about different track levels. No more ruined recordings just to be loud (if people want to smash their stuff, fine, just don't make the rest of us have to explain why we don't want to do it).

I really think that we should adopt standards, and soon, easy workable standards, let all audio people know about them, free RMS tools, stickers, leaflets. Like putting test tones down on tape. The part of engineering that says "We are professional, we have standards so that things will work correctly".

[7 Hz]

"Thank you for buying an Equal Loudness CD. This CD has been created to conform to the Equal Loudness standard. This standard means different recordings should be at approximately the same loudness, for your listening pleasure.

You may have to turn your volume control up when coming from a 'hyper-loud' recording, but one adjusted all your Equal Loudness marked recordings will be at the same level"

[espasonico]

Originally Posted by 7 Hz

"Thank you for buying an Equal Loudness CD. This CD has been created to conform to the Equal Loudness standard. This standard means different recordings should be at approximately the same loudness, for your listening pleasure.

You may have to turn your volume control up when coming from a 'hyper-loud' recording, but one adjusted all your Equal Loudness marked recordings will be at the same level"

This would be great if people were still buying CDs, but nobody buys CDs anymore, they just buy an mp3 on the internet ( and many just steal them ).

I know I´m exaggerating a little bit but with mp3 people don´t even know how the cover looks like !!

[over-man]

Originally Posted by 7 Hz

I like Bob Katz idea of RMS standards. In fact, I think audio engineering as an overall profession is a joke today because we don't have a standard.

I attempted to implement his standard just the other day, playing a -20 dB RMS pink noise tone out of Logic, through a Lightbridge to hd24XR, analog outs 1-2 to a Yamaha board's main inserts. I marked the position on the master fader that produced 83 dB SPL, then -2, -4, and so on.

After referencing CDs and mp3s all day (through iTunes w/ volume 100%) a trend appeared. The vast majority of my jazz cds never lit up the red clipping lights on the XR, but some new rock CDs were constantly clipping the XRs convertors. Classical made for very comfortable listening at the 0 position. Some rock CDs I had to drop 10 dB or more.

Are these CDs really mastered so hot they constantly clip, or do I have something that is boosting them in my chain? I'm not always able to hear the clipping, so I'm really trying to understand whats going on.

Its great to have a solid reference point for volume though, instead of blindly twisting knobs and occasionaly measuring with a dB meter.

[atropos]

I dunno.. I still buy discs. MP3s are simply not worth any amount of money, unless they're lossless, and even then I'd argue about it.

The loudness wars really do seem to 'vanish' once you get out of pop / rock / metal etc genres, in my experience.

I think what's going to happen is that at some point, the upward trend will really just collapse on itself.... how much more flatlined can music get without sounding like trash? There isn't a lot of room left.

[jhg]

I guess it could be easier for a consumer to not have to adjust the volume at all, it's just
a full album of maximum volume.

I have been trying to buy vinyl instead of Cds for the past year, slipped up on a few occasions when I wanted the album and the vinyl wasn't immediately/any time soon available.

Squarepushers' most recent release, Hello Everything is a great vinyl release, 3 records, dynamics really there - my adcom stereo pre has no remote control, but I don't mind getting up and actually adjusting the volume.

I do like the idea of informing average consumers that adjusting volume isn't a bad thing, but it's all really preaching to the choir here(many can cite an album they've worked on killed by overly aggressive mastering against best wishes, hell I know I can)

Dynamics are good.

Regards,

jhg