Evaluate my mix - Indie Rock

[witchfeet]

Hey guys and gals. I'm working on recording an album for my band here in Chicago. This is one track with no vocals. Drums recorded to tape by me and the rest is digital with Soundcraft Spirit Studio preamps into an Echo interface to Logic 9. Bass is a mix of direct from a Sans Amp and a few different mics. Guitars are an Orange Rocker 30 and a Marshall JMP. I've been mixing in the box, but can mix analog for the most part if I'd like although I don't know if the Soundcraft's "sound" is really worth the effort. I may give it a try.

I think the mix sounds decent, but there is some kind of congestion going on IMO. It sounds rather warm and full, but I really want some more air in the sounds and more of a dynamic range. It also seems to have a lack of energy. I'm sort of at a loss here and somewhat pulling my hair out.

I've been using the old Alesis Monitor Ones with a powerful Altec Lansing amp. The high end on these things is horrible and I tend to mix really dark on them for some reason. I just ordered myself a pair of the new passive Tannoy Reveal 601p monitors and some AKG K240 headphones that may or not help me out.

I'm fairly new to mixing but have been practicing my butt off to get better fast. I've had one "real" client so far and it went really good but recording my own band is harder.

Any advice or criticism is welcome and appreciated.

http://soundcloud.com/baytamusic/dick-done-1-24-12

ps Soundcloud makes stuff sound like crap I just noticed.

[Enlightened Hand]

I think you've done a good job of getting the elements to sit together in a cohesive way, which is very good. I also think the performances seem good and (without knowing for certain having not heard the raw tracks) it seems recorded well enough to make something good happen. What is lacking most IMO is use of EQ and compression to give an enhanced presentation, more impact, give it some "shine" and clean up some of the mud.

I'm still trying to figure out how to best tell someone how to do that on an internet forum. A lot of folks have very specific advice (boost here, cut there, dial in a comp here). But I'm loathe to tell you specifics having not heard the raw tracks and not being able to be there with you, listening to show you how. Unfortunately there's no recipe. But you're definitely off to a great start as the mix (while not there yet) is not horrible, especially for someone at your stage of experience.

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

I think you've done a good job of getting the elements to sit together in a cohesive way, which is very good. I also think the performances seem good and (without knowing for certain having not heard the raw tracks) it seems recorded well enough to make something good happen. What is lacking most IMO is use of EQ and compression to give an enhanced presentation, more impact, give it some "shine" and clean up some of the mud.

I'm still trying to figure out how to best tell someone how to do that on an internet forum. A lot of folks have very specific advice (boost here, cut there, dial in a comp here). But I'm loathe to tell you specifics having not heard the raw tracks and not being able to be there with you, listening to show you how. Unfortunately there's no recipe. But you're definitely off to a great start as the mix (while not there yet) is not horrible, especially for someone at your stage of experience.

Thanks for the reply and the compliments. I'm wondering if the guitars need to have some subtractive EQ in the lower mids or something. I'm definitely going for a thick sort of roomy sound, but at the same time I don't want the midrange to be so "full". I have TONS of tracks to work with as I recorded four mics on most of the guitar takes.

I'm really excited to get a different pair of monitors that hopefully have more detail in the mids and highs that isn't so obnoxious. Half my problem is I just literally can't hear what's going on in there with my current monitoring situation. My mix room is 25x15 with 11 foot ceilings and I have tons of 2'x4'x6" panels in there so the acoustics seem pretty good. I try to do it up right with my available finances.

[Apollo Soul]

There's a subforum for this (where this will undoubtedly get moved.)

In the meantime... It's not bad.

Depends how "indie" you're trying to be. Full on indie would be one mic in the middle of the room... on the other end would be a Mutt Lange type production.

If you're going for a more popular aesthetic, the guitars are too loud in relation to the drums, and the drums need a good deal of tightening and punch.

I really like the muted guitar sound toward the end.

Drums are always the hardest thing in a rock mix (one of the reasons I tend to do more electronic drums). Generally, they sound washed out here. Since everything else is more or less as it should be, I'd start reading up on drum processing techniques.

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by Apollo Soul

There's a subforum for this (where this will undoubtedly get moved.)

In the meantime... It's not bad.

Depends how "indie" you're trying to be. Full on indie would be one mic in the middle of the room... on the other end would be a Mutt Lange type production.

If you're going for a more popular aesthetic, the guitars are too loud in relation to the drums, and the drums need a good deal of tightening and punch.

I really like the muted guitar sound toward the end.

Drums are always the hardest thing in a rock mix (one of the reasons I tend to do more electronic drums). Generally, they sound washed out here. Since everything else is more or less as it should be, I'd start reading up on drum processing techniques.

Thanks, I'm definitely not going for the Guided by Voices 4-track "indie" sound. ha. I guess I'm going for a more commercial sounding rock recording but with a sort of more roomy, thick Zeppelin-y type drum sound. Like some of the more produced Sonic Youth, Pixies or Guided by Voices albums. I've been using Sonic Youth's Dirty album for a reference at times, but I'm way off of the quality of that recording and stylistically it's quite different from us.

[witchfeet]

Also, I couldn't seem to find that forum for this. Maybe I'm nuts or did too many drugs in the 90s.

[audiogeek]

Hmmm... I know what you mean.

First off, it sounds good, you did a nice job. Good guitar tones, good drum sounds, everything sounds balanced.

We're kind of at a loss without being able to hear vocals with it, which tend to be a pretty important part of the picture.

That aside, I'd say the first thing I'd do to create more dynamics and space is to change the arrangement. It's kind of "both guitars, playing the whole time, with that distortion sound the whole time". Verses and choruses don't do anything different. (again, it very well may be that the vocals would help break this up, but I'm just going on what I hear).

My advice would be to change it up. Mute one or both guitars for one or both verses. Maybe add a guitar melody line in a verse or two, clean, or with delay, or a different reverb. Maybe even blend in an acoustic. Layer in another guitar double, with a different tone, during the chorus. The drum sounds are great, but it's a lot of room mic. Maybe back off the rooms, ride them up on the fills. Kill the room mics all together during the choruses. Hell, throw in a tambourine part underneath the snare hits.

Again, this is all off the top of my head... try some of the ideas out and see what works. The biggest ro******* I tend to see for most artists, is a preoccupation with "can this be done live?" We only have two guitarists, so we shouldn't add in a third guitar part. If you want to create a captivating, interesting mix, you've got to throw that mindset out the window... It's the little things that make a recording special.

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by witchfeet

Thanks for the reply and the compliments. I'm wondering if the guitars need to have some subtractive EQ in the lower mids or something. I'm definitely going for a thick sort of roomy sound, but at the same time I don't want the midrange to be so "full". I have TONS of tracks to work with as I recorded four mics on most of the guitar takes....

Yeah I think you probably have some good raw tracks because as I mentioned earlier, it sounds like it was recorded well enough to make a great mix. I don't hear anything that would suggest that you need to change anything fundamental in the recording or arrangement. Really most of it seems to be a problem of how you're dialing in your EQ and compression and all of the other little decisions you're making. Probably the monitors steering you wrong for the most part.

...I'm really excited to get a different pair of monitors that hopefully have more detail in the mids and highs that isn't so obnoxious. Half my problem is I just literally can't hear what's going on in there with my current monitoring situation. My mix room is 25x15 with 11 foot ceilings and I have tons of 2'x4'x6" panels in there so the acoustics seem pretty good. I try to do it up right with my available finances.

Sounds like you have a room that can really work to your advantage. Some better monitoring would go a long way in there with your situation.

[Osis]

Some cool stuff man! reference any Yeah Yeah Yeahs for some ideas as to how would like your stuff to come out, I can hear some similar playing and sounds, especially that could be done in mixtime. And they always sound interesting. I think that should be the point of a cool song like this, make it exciting. I like the roomy drums, maybe bus them to an aux and distort and compress the crap out of it and throw that up on the chorus. I would try to bring the rim clicks up whenever they are there. Best of luck, sounds interesting man, and with that many guitar tracks, you could come up with some really quirky funked out stuff.

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by audiogeek

Hmmm... I know what you mean.

First off, it sounds good, you did a nice job. Good guitar tones, good drum sounds, everything sounds balanced.

We're kind of at a loss without being able to hear vocals with it, which tend to be a pretty important part of the picture.

That aside, I'd say the first thing I'd do to create more dynamics and space is to change the arrangement. It's kind of "both guitars, playing the whole time, with that distortion sound the whole time". Verses and choruses don't do anything different. (again, it very well may be that the vocals would help break this up, but I'm just going on what I hear).

My advice would be to change it up. Mute one or both guitars for one or both verses. Maybe add a guitar melody line in a verse or two, clean, or with delay, or a different reverb. Maybe even blend in an acoustic. Layer in another guitar double, with a different tone, during the chorus. The drum sounds are great, but it's a lot of room mic. Maybe back off the rooms, ride them up on the fills. Kill the room mics all together during the choruses. Hell, throw in a tambourine part underneath the snare hits.

Again, this is all off the top of my head... try some of the ideas out and see what works. The biggest ro******* I tend to see for most artists, is a preoccupation with "can this be done live?" We only have two guitarists, so we shouldn't add in a third guitar part. If you want to create a captivating, interesting mix, you've got to throw that mindset out the window... It's the little things that make a recording special.

I'll definitely take this stuff into consideration. I think we are going to go tambourine and piano nuts on some of the songs once vocals are tracked. We have a cool Wurlitzer from the 60s in my studio. We have couple acoustic type songs and some "no drums" stuff we are planning to break up the album. We definitely have a lot of guitar going on most of the time on our more rocking tunes, but in a way I feel like it's sort of our style. I do think getting more creative with sounds is the way to go though. I'm trying to get the overall feel working right now, as I'm very inexperienced. I maybe have 100 hours mix time under my belt right now at most.

[Melvin III]

i like! it has a nice glue to it nothing seems out of place well im on my mbp speakers at the moment but it seems like a pretty well structured mix

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by Osis

Some cool stuff man! reference any Yeah Yeah Yeahs for some ideas as to how would like your stuff to come out, I can hear some similar playing and sounds, especially that could be done in mixtime. And they always sound interesting. I think that should be the point of a cool song like this, make it exciting. I like the roomy drums, maybe bus them to an aux and distort and compress the crap out of it and throw that up on the chorus. I would try to bring the rim clicks up whenever they are there. Best of luck, sounds interesting man, and with that many guitar tracks, you could come up with some really quirky funked out stuff.

I'm a really big Yeah Yeah Yeahs fan. I love how their recordings sound and they are super creative. I've actually used them as a reference a few times, but the stuff is so out there it's a weird jump from our stuff to theirs. Thanks for the compliments too btw.

[Sirmikeywest]

Here, check this one out. Keep in mind that they do not have a bass player at the moment.....

http://soundcloud.com/mikey-west/the...rce=soundcloud

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by Sirmikeywest

Here, check this one out. Keep in mind that they do not have a bass player at the moment.....

The Politics (by StereoJunk) by MiKey West on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Hmm, looks like someone didn't read the first post. I guess if others want to use this thread for posting mixes to be evaluated that's cool with me.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by witchfeet

Hey guys and gals. I'm working on recording an album for my band here in Chicago. This is one track with no vocals. Drums recorded to tape by me and the rest is digital with Soundcraft Spirit Studio preamps into an Echo interface to Logic 9. Bass is a mix of direct from a Sans Amp and a few different mics. Guitars are an Orange Rocker 30 and a Marshall JMP. I've been mixing in the box, but can mix analog for the most part if I'd like although I don't know if the Soundcraft's "sound" is really worth the effort. I may give it a try.

I think the mix sounds decent, but there is some kind of congestion going on IMO. It sounds rather warm and full, but I really want some more air in the sounds and more of a dynamic range. It also seems to have a lack of energy. I'm sort of at a loss here and somewhat pulling my hair out.

I've been using the old Alesis Monitor Ones with a powerful Altec Lansing amp. The high end on these things is horrible and I tend to mix really dark on them for some reason. I just ordered myself a pair of the new passive Tannoy Reveal 601p monitors and some AKG K240 headphones that may or not help me out.

I'm fairly new to mixing but have been practicing my butt off to get better fast. I've had one "real" client so far and it went really good but recording my own band is harder.

Any advice or criticism is welcome and appreciated.

http://soundcloud.com/baytamusic/dick-done-1-24-12

ps Soundcloud makes stuff sound like crap I just noticed.

deep down is sounds like pop rock

but what makes it sound indie rock is the bad drum sound and raw production


if you want it to sound indie just keep it the way it is

[aaronsmith]

Originally Posted by witchfeet

Any advice or criticism is welcome and appreciated.

http://soundcloud.com/baytamusic/dick-done-1-24-12

ps Soundcloud makes stuff sound like crap I just noticed.

are you up for leting me mix it?

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

deep down is sounds like pop rock

but what makes it sound indie rock is the bad drum sound and raw production


if you want it to sound indie just keep it the way it is

Bad drum sound? I'm not saying these are the best sounding drums ever recorded, but I think it's far from bad drum sound. Maybe it's just not stylistically what you'd go for.

[witchfeet]

Originally Posted by aaronsmith

are you up for leting me mix it?

Vocals aren't tracked yet but I wouldn't be against getting someone else's take on a mix. Our singer just left on a two week tour to the east coast today in his other band so I probably won't have any vocals tracked for at least a couple weeks.

They are Logic sessions right now but I recorded everything as WAVs at 96k. What do you work in?

[skythemusic]

I think the mix overall is way too dry. This doesn't sound super indie to me, more just modernish rock. I would listen to some of Andy Hong's work, especially Karate, which a very general vibe and direction could come from. I would do a lot more hi passing to clean up the mud. Focus on addition by subtraction. The kick drum probably needs a nice 3-6 db cut around 350-500. The guitars sound too DI to me and the snare needs more weight and snap. Overall the mix could use some more presence in the 4-6k region. Use compression to lock the kick and bass together better, they are a bit too loose in spots. There are some good elements and it doesn't sound poorly tracked. Take an element or two completely out and see how it sounds, take an element or two and lo-fi them and see how it sounds, take an element or two and make them absurdly loud and see how it sounds. The mix is fairly balanced but you need the guts to really highlight a couple things and perhaps simply get rid of a couple things. Production choices. It just needs more excitement and to have the veil lifted. I would also double check the phase alignment in mono and pan things hard left and right more extremely to widen the mix. Lastly, how the vocals are done will make a big difference. Think ahead on that.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by witchfeet

Bad drum sound? I'm not saying these are the best sounding drums ever recorded, but I think it's far from bad drum sound. Maybe it's just not stylistically what you'd go for.

why ask for evaluation and then question it?

drums sound great..................

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by witchfeet

Any advice or criticism is welcome and appreciated.

Without the vocal, it's really pretty hard to know how the mix & arrangement are coming together. Based on what you said you are going for, I'd say it's kind of one-dimensional - not a bad thing, but there it is. The drums are sitting way far away in one dimension; the guitars are sitting way up front in one dimension... Maybe send the kick & snare to a subgroup, compress it and bring it up in parallel (à la mode these days) to put a point on them and add a more forward dimension to them.

4 mics on each guitar? On separate tracks? Ouch. Commit man, commit! Decide where each part wants to sit in the arrangement (left, right, forward, midfield, stereo, mono, solo melody, counter melody...) and record it that way. Always leave the vocal in, and build the arrangement around that.

My 2¢. Sounds good though.

[BootsyGraham]

I think it sounds great. I think that you need the vocals in the mix to really get an idea of where everything will sit. I like the band too. What's their name? We should all play a show if they ever come out to Long Beach.