Mixing with a sub? Is it really working?

[Kaleido]

Does this setup really work if you want an accurate bass? I'm producing house music so it's really important to hear how the tracks would sound in the club (or at least almost how they would sound, I'm not going to have a club PA in my studio :P).

I'm going to buy new monitors, but I dont know which one would give me enough bass response...

I've tested a few and I like the KRK Vxt 6. But doesnt seem like there is enoug hbass in them, tried the vxt8 but it doesnt sound as good as the vxt 6.


Anyway, it doesnt seem that I will get monitors that reproduce a lot of bass really well without paying very much money and I was thinking if it works with a sub?

then I could go with maybe the KRK + KRK sub, or dynaudio BM6A + sub...

I've talked to several monitor stores and they say that using a sub is NOT the way to go because it gets harder to mix and u need better treated room etc etc...

How does it work really?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

I've talked to several monitor stores and they say that using a sub is NOT the way to go because it gets harder to mix and u need better treated room etc

Well, you need bass traps and other treatment whether you use a sub or not. You say you want accurate bass. The only way to know how accurate your system is by measuring your room's LF response at high resolution using appropriate software:

Room Measuring Primer

If you get full-range speakers that can play to at least as low as 40 Hz you probably don't need a sub.

--Ethan

The Acoustic Treatment Experts

[Slikjmuzik]

Ethan is absolute correct my friend. However, that article and the process you would need to go through may be a bit daunting. I know it is for me.

What I recommend which worked beautifully and completely altered how well my mixes translate was a few things. First, I switched out foam for real acoustic treatment. Realtraps is a fantastic solution. I chose to make my own. I'd go with 2" Roxul 80. You can buy a 6-pack of 2ft x 4ft. 2-inch panels for less than $80 from ATS Acoustics. Take 4 of them and make 2, 4-inch panels for the bottom of your corners to the left and right of your station. Take the remaining 2-inch thick panels and mount the horizontally to the left and right of you. If you can afford another 6-pack, do the same thing, make 2, 4-inch panels and make broadband panels with the remaining 2 panels. Make sure you choose a fabric to cover them that allows mids and highs to enter the 2" panels.

Get those VXT6's and get the sub. Once you have those panels up, get yourself KRK Ergo. I can't say enough about that Ergo. It does the job very well and allows your mixes to translate. You don't overcompensate when that thing is shot right and turned on. Leave your interface spdif and trust it!! Best advice I can possibly give.

[Kaleido]

Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik

Ethan is absolute correct my friend. However, that article and the process you would need to go through may be a bit daunting. I know it is for me.

What I recommend which worked beautifully and completely altered how well my mixes translate was a few things. First, I switched out foam for real acoustic treatment. Realtraps is a fantastic solution. I chose to make my own. I'd go with 2" Roxul 80. You can buy a 6-pack of 2ft x 4ft. 2-inch panels for less than $80 from ATS Acoustics. Take 4 of them and make 2, 4-inch panels for the bottom of your corners to the left and right of your station. Take the remaining 2-inch thick panels and mount the horizontally to the left and right of you. If you can afford another 6-pack, do the same thing, make 2, 4-inch panels and make broadband panels with the remaining 2 panels. Make sure you choose a fabric to cover them that allows mids and highs to enter the 2" panels.

Get those VXT6's and get the sub. Once you have those panels up, get yourself KRK Ergo. I can't say enough about that Ergo. It does the job very well and allows your mixes to translate. You don't overcompensate when that thing is shot right and turned on. Leave your interface spdif and trust it!! Best advice I can possibly give.

Well it seems right now that I'm going for either KRK vxt6 with sub, Dynaudio BM6A or Event Opal...

I had an offer for the Opals at about 1500 euro so thats just way I had them in mind, seems I wont need sub with them at least..

Would I need a sub with the dynaudios? I will treat my room and use basstraps even though I wont buy a sub but I just really like to know... I'm no professional and it just seems that if you dont know everything correct with aucoustics etc, sub will do more bad than good.

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

Well it seems right now that I'm going for either KRK vxt6 with sub, Dynaudio BM6A or Event Opal...

I had an offer for the Opals at about 1500 euro so thats just way I had them in mind, seems I wont need sub with them at least..

Would I need a sub with the dynaudios? I will treat my room and use basstraps even though I wont buy a sub but I just really like to know... I'm no professional and it just seems that if you dont know everything correct with aucoustics etc, sub will do more bad than good.

Well in many ways, this is true, but a basic understanding of acoustics can go a long way with regard to what not to do. Don't overtreat your room and make it too dead and don't just arbitrarily place accoustic treatment. Thick panels go in corners. Aside from that, 2-inch panels go on walls to help with reflections and comb filtering. This is essentially what the first few paragraphs say in the link Ethan posted. I wouldn't overthink it at your stage. Get some bass trapping, get decent monitors. Anything with as 6" woofer or smaller, I'd highly recommend a subwoofer for as I've found that even the best 6" monitors still don't created the bass frequencies and allow you to hear and feel them like a dedicated speaker that isn't responsible for reproducing frequencies above 80-100hz as well. Trust your ears buddy.

[Enlightened Hand]

Subs are so tricky because they can exacerbate a problem room's low frequency response. They also have to be calibrated with the system, placed well and fine tuned to work just right.

Since most people don't have great room acoustics and don't do enough to rectify that problem, and since most people don't really know what they have to do to properly integrate their sub into their system the general appraisal of the situation with subs is that they are likely under ordinary circumstances, with typical users to cause more problems than they solve. But this isn't an absolute.

Ideally you want to hear it all. I disagree with the assertion that a system that claims to (or actually does) extend down to 40Hz is enough (though I don't mean that in any way to take away from Ethan's knowledge or credibility). A system like that can be "enough" if you're okay with forfeiting being able to hear the stuff that happens from 20 to 40Hz. It's true there isn't much music down there. But there are plosives, rumbles and general low frequency nonsense that can eat up the quality of your recording. But even having said that I recognize that it's a matter of perspective.

Most end listeners will never hear the ultra low frequency content of the music they listen to because they don't have systems that reproduce that low. But there are other benefits to having an authentically "full range" monitoring system, properly utilizing a well integrated sub.

If a sub is working as it should (and that's a BIG if, given the typical circumstances) then it helps make the entire system perform more efficiently, in that the smaller mid-bass drivers are not working to produce frequencies that they are not ideally suited to be producing. I have found this provides more clarity throughout the mid-range and more headroom overall.

So IMO (your experience might differ) it's best to hear it all when possible, as much as possible, which would mean utilizing a sub or a set of mains that reach low enough cleanly. But if compromise is too steep with the room acoustics or the placement or the lack of proper integration then it's best to just go without a sub.

[flatfinger]

as others have wisely pointed out , the room !

But also ;

One word .....;

Integration. Integration between subs and satellite's.



Do some lurking about at the Home Theater forums and sites . there are factors that seperate the wheat from chaff! There are subs for movies and then there's music . Some subs even have a mode switch that can select for that . The other thing is sealed or ported and even how much flexibity is built in to the X-overs ( adjustable freq and slopes !!) then there's amps !


But you need both proper sub/sat integration and your room sorted! Remember this , for the room that is "colored" and not flat ...... then ;


"You can take the mix out of the room , but you can't take the room out of the mix "

[Slikjmuzik]

Again, both above are correct, but as I stated, the Ergo will correct all the remaining problems with the low frequencies.

I for the longest thought my sub was just boomy and also fell right into the camp that I would not be able to hear frequencies below 50-60hz until the day I could afford a professional acoustician to come in who would charge easily $20-$30k to get the job done right. I now proudly advertize that with the Ergo(no, I don't work for them), you can do average, not poor or use foam, but average acoustic treatment and I have full, and the room, all the way down to 20-30hz can be trusted and your decisions with EQ and compression and be completely trusted, all thanks to this device that will run you all of $600.

http://www.krkergo.com/

[Kaleido]

Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik

Again, both above are correct, but as I stated, the Ergo will correct all the remaining problems with the low frequencies.

I for the longest thought my sub was just boomy and also fell right into the camp that I would not be able to hear frequencies below 50-60hz until the day I could afford a professional acoustician to come in who would charge easily $20-$30k to get the job done right. I now proudly advertize that with the Ergo(no, I don't work for them), you can do average, not poor or use foam, but average acoustic treatment and I have full, and the room, all the way down to 20-30hz can be trusted and your decisions with EQ and compression and be completely trusted, all thanks to this device that will run you all of $600.

KRKERGO.COM

So you would recommend krk + krk sub and krk ergo?

What setup do you use yourself if I could ask? Does the Dynaudio BM6A need sub? Of course that is a relative question but we are talking house, club music and as far as you've already helped me with tips I believe you might know...

[David R.]

It threw me when I first started mixing with a sub. My method is to listen to a few cds that I really know and trust mix-wise. Get to know your system. This is not discounting proper room treatment, just supplementing.

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

So you would recommend krk + krk sub and krk ergo?

What setup do you use yourself if I could ask? Does the Dynaudio BM6A need sub? Of course that is a relative question but we are talking house, club music and as far as you've already helped me with tips I believe you might know...

Not necessarily all KRK. Here I use Adam A7's, the originals, with a Tannoy TS-10 into the Ergo. Works perfect.

[Kaleido]

Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik

Not necessarily all KRK. Here I use Adam A7's, the originals, with a Tannoy TS-10 into the Ergo. Works perfect.

Isnt the krk sub suited to go with the krk monitors?

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

Isnt the krk sub suited to go with the krk monitors?

No way to tell...and it's definitely not defined as that on any of their literature. By definition, if it's made to go with only KRK speakers, it wouldn't be very varsatile and not so good for use with other speakers and I don't think KRK would design such a limited addition for the low end. I myself use a Tannoy sub and it definitely works fantastic with my Adams. I think, again, it's important to stress that you simply need to like the way it sounds before thinking you can incorporate it into your setup. The KRK sub, to my ears, can get boomy, but in a good room, you should be ok. They are not bad, especially for the money.

[flatfinger]

You don't have to go the full pay someone thousands to redesign your room ; .. a little bass trapping is muy cost efficient in the final analysis .........., on the other hand a DSP box can help , but not if you have some real nulls or modal situations . You can take measurments using swept sine waves( not just an FFT and pink noise ! ) and get more info .

Most dsp that's included in the Genelec or Equator audio systems will do a great job W/ early reflections like bounces off your desk or nearby stuff ..;( at least that's what I have seen/heard ) This does make a marked improvement when you A/B..... dsp spline eq ( automated; push the button and wait a spell :-) is pretty astounding technology , but not a panacea IMHO.

However if you have a serious null or peak, say close or in your mix positon and can't move the desk around , having a choice of X-over frequency and slopes gives you the ability to over or underlap the subs and sats .... The problem with using a fixed 80hz 12db Fs is that it only will work in your room if luck is on your side ...... Just my $.02

Like most things in life , rewards are proportional to effort .....

[Kaleido]

Originally Posted by flatfinger

You don't have to go the full pay someone thousands to redesign your room ; .. a little bass trapping is muy cost efficient in the final analysis .........., on the other hand a DSP box can help , but not if you have some real nulls or modal situations . You can take measurments using swept sine waves( not just an FFT and pink noise ! ) and get more info .

Most dsp that's included in the Genelec or Equator audio systems will do a great job W/ early reflections like bounces off your desk or nearby stuff ..;( at least that's what I have seen/heard ) This does make a marked improvement when you A/B..... dsp spline eq ( automated; push the button and wait a spell :-) is pretty astounding technology , but not a panacea IMHO.

However if you have a serious null or peak, say close or in your mix positon and can't move the desk around , having a choice of X-over frequency and slopes gives you the ability to over or underlap the subs and sats .... The problem with using a fixed 80hz 12db Fs is that it only will work in your room if luck is on your side ...... Just my $.02

Like most things in life , rewards are proportional to effort .....

I must say that I didnt understand all that you wrote...

I just really want to know if I NEED a sub or not....

Right now I'm looking at KRK Vxt 4, Dynaudio BM6A and Event Opal... I cn get the Opals for 1500 euro, otherwise I wont buy them newbecause their to expensive... So will I need a sub for all of these monitors or not? Because I researched around other house producers studios and it looks like no one of them is using a sub... I really want to avoid a sub if I dont need 2

[famousbass]

Let's go real life problem solving here now.
You produce House.
No hifi store demos House and very few engineers reference tune their ears and rooms to it either.
So just get the best sub that works or massive speakers. A good quality sub helps.Anything under $800 prob won't do for you.
Do a few mixes that work for you and take them to a club.
Audition them alongside other well known beats you refer to.
Take notes. Go back home and tweak and repeat venue visit.
When you have your first hit, pay for room treatment. And upgrade your whole monitoring.

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

I must say that I didnt understand all that you wrote...

I just really want to know if I NEED a sub or not....

Right now I'm looking at KRK Vxt 4, Dynaudio BM6A and Event Opal... I cn get the Opals for 1500 euro, otherwise I wont buy them newbecause their to expensive... So will I need a sub for all of these monitors or not? Because I researched around other house producers studios and it looks like no one of them is using a sub... I really want to avoid a sub if I dont need 2

I'll just re-post this little snippet:

...So IMO (your experience might differ) it's best to hear it all when possible, as much as possible, which would mean utilizing a sub or a set of mains that reach low enough cleanly. But if compromise is too steep with the room acoustics or the placement or the lack of proper integration then it's best to just go without a sub.

That's as far as anyone can tell you about "need".

Monitoring, accurate monitoring, isn't about style of music. It transcends style. You either want accurate monitoring or you don't. It's the same formula for accuracy with any style of music.

Now there are plenty of people that get by and even do quite will with limited bandwidth and otherwise compromised monitoring. Nothing wrong with that if it works for them. Will that work for you? Only your ears in your room can say.

[Panelhead]

Originally Posted by Kaleido

Isnt the krk sub suited to go with the krk monitors?

Not at all. In fact it was designed and built by CEntrance, KRK -Stanton- Now Fender saw a need for it to work with their speakers.
I have used mine with Quad Pro active monitors and Lite Sub , a Blue Sky System One, and Blue Sky Mid Blue system. Worked great with all three.
The effect it has on the low end is addictive. I would not want to go back.
AND, I think everyone needs a sub. Most full range monitors roll off around 40 - 50 Hz. The ones with 6 1/2 and smaller drivers even higher. If the monitors cannot reproduce the 20 - 40 Hz range with any accuracy how can you evaluate the recordings?

George

[Kaleido]

Originally Posted by Panelhead

Not at all. In fact it was designed and built by CEntrance, KRK -Stanton- Now Fender saw a need for it to work with their speakers.
I have used mine with Quad Pro active monitors and Lite Sub , a Blue Sky System One, and Blue Sky Mid Blue system. Worked great with all three.
The effect it has on the low end is addictive. I would not want to go back.
AND, I think everyone needs a sub. Most full range monitors roll off around 40 - 50 Hz. The ones with 6 1/2 and smaller drivers even higher. If the monitors cannot reproduce the 20 - 40 Hz range with any accuracy how can you evaluate the recordings?

George

How come I haven't found a single house producer that uses a sub? I know everyoe likes different but there should at least be some guy who use a sub if they make club music?

[Enlightened Hand]

A lot of people get into the music business and do what sells and that gets them a reputation as someone that makes money in the industry. That doesn't qualify them as knowledgeable about the specifics of monitor selection or quality playback. You don't have to copy what someone else does with their monitoring to produce the music they produce.

So if the other house guys aren't using subs (to your knowledge) then so be it. The question is really about what you're going to do.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

Ideally you want to hear it all. I disagree with the assertion that a system that claims to (or actually does) extend down to 40Hz is enough

Yes, ideally you want to hear it all. And rumbles and foot steps can extend to below 20 Hz. My own sub is tuned to 18 Hz and extends even lower than that with usable output. But this sub cost $2,000, and is in a nice sized room with about $15,000 worth of acoustic treatment. How many pro nearfields go much below 40 Hz? So yeah, being able to monitor below 40 Hz would be great, but it quickly gets very expensive. Much cheaper to listen to a track once all the way through with headphones to identify subsonic mud.

--Ethan

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yes, ideally you want to hear it all. And rumbles and foot steps can extend to below 20 Hz. My own sub is tuned to 18 Hz and extends even lower than that with usable output. But this sub cost $2,000, and is in a nice sized room with about $15,000 worth of acoustic treatment. How many pro nearfields go much below 40 Hz? So yeah, being able to monitor below 40 Hz would be great, but it quickly gets very expensive. Much cheaper to listen to a track once all the way through with headphones to identify subsonic mud.

--Ethan

We agree completely. Which is why I said:

...So IMO (your experience might differ) it's best to hear it all when possible, as much as possible, which would mean utilizing a sub or a set of mains that reach low enough cleanly. But if compromise is too steep with the room acoustics or the placement or the lack of proper integration then it's best to just go without a sub.

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yes, ideally you want to hear it all. And rumbles and foot steps can extend to below 20 Hz. My own sub is tuned to 18 Hz and extends even lower than that with usable output. But this sub cost $2,000, and is in a nice sized room with about $15,000 worth of acoustic treatment. How many pro nearfields go much below 40 Hz? So yeah, being able to monitor below 40 Hz would be great, but it quickly gets very expensive. Much cheaper to listen to a track once all the way through with headphones to identify subsonic mud.

--Ethan

I like my HD380's for this.

[kasmira]

If you can get the Opals for that great of a price I would do that in a heartbeat!! That is an amazing price. I don't think I could ever recommend a KRK VXT set up for the same price as Opals. Ever. Two vxt 6s plus the sub would be just about the same price. Opals will be much louder, have much more accurate of a response, and the 8 inch woofer has an insane amount of throw on it. It goes LOW, very accurately too.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Gearslutz.com

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by kasmira

If you can get the Opals for that great of a price I would do that in a heartbeat!! That is an amazing price. I don't think I could ever recommend a KRK VXT set up for the same price as Opals. Ever. Two vxt 6s plus the sub would be just about the same price. Opals will be much louder, have much more accurate of a response, and the 8 inch woofer has an insane amount of throw on it. It goes LOW, very accurately too.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Gearslutz.com

I disagree with the VXT derision and the price comparison. The VXT6 is $900/pair. The 10s sub is $400. That's a total of $1300. Hardly the price of the Opals at $3k (new) and at 1500 euros (almost $2kUSD).

I happen to own a pair of VXT4 and a 10s sub that I use in my alternate room. If done right (again a BIG "if") that combination is quite good. Though this thread isn't really about the merits of the VXT versus the Opals (not even a fair comparison IMO by the way). I have to say the VXT is a good nearfield for critical listening as compared to most ported nearfields and an excellent value. Your experience might differ.

[bonestar]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yes, ideally you want to hear it all. And rumbles and foot steps can extend to below 20 Hz. My own sub is tuned to 18 Hz and extends even lower than that with usable output. But this sub cost $2,000, and is in a nice sized room with about $15,000 worth of acoustic treatment. How many pro nearfields go much below 40 Hz? So yeah, being able to monitor below 40 Hz would be great, but it quickly gets very expensive.

I mix on Dynaudio BM6A's and my mixes seem to translate pretty well, but I sometimes get the low bass wrong. So I was considering getting a sub as essentially another check mix. Mains alone, mains + sub, then mono Avantone (not necessarily on that order) should give me a pretty good representation of what's going on. Am I wrong in thinking there is a significant advantage to getting the sub unless I have a lot of room treatment?

Much cheaper to listen to a track once all the way through with headphones to identify subsonic mud.

Can you reccomed some headphones that will go low enough to figure that out? I'm pretty sure mine don't.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by bonestar

Am I wrong in thinking there is a significant advantage to getting the sub unless I have a lot of room treatment?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you don't have any / enough bass traps, deal with that first before worrying about adding a sub. Your speakers are rated down to 41 Hz, which is low enough for most music work.

--Ethan

[gammalord]

Originally Posted by bonestar

I mix on Dynaudio BM6A's and my mixes seem to translate pretty well, but I sometimes get the low bass wrong. So I was considering getting a sub as essentially another check mix. Mains alone, mains + sub, then mono Avantone (not necessarily on that order) should give me a pretty good representation of what's going on. Am I wrong in thinking there is a significant advantage to getting the sub unless I have a lot of room treatment?

Can you reccomed some headphones that will go low enough to figure that out? I'm pretty sure mine don't.

A sub in the wrong room can do quite a bit of harm to the final mix. After battling with an upredictable low end forever and ever I finally said "**** IT" and pulled the sub out of my monitoring and put it in a closet. After a couple days of my ears readjusting - my mixes translated all the way down. Mind you I use the old Event 20/20 which can extend low enough for most rock music but the point was made clear - a sub in the wrong room or poorly matched to the mains can really destroy the ENTIRE mix, not just the lows.

Your Dynaudios (awesome) coupled with some basic room treatment should do the trick. Spec out your room with the free software that Ethan suggests in one of his excellent room treatment primers. You will be suprised and horrified and everything the room treatment nerds have been saying will become painfully important to you. It's kind of ALL about the treatment. I didn't want to believe this so badly because I didn't want to spend money on something that didn't really DO anything....oh but it does. Oh it most certainly does.

[bonestar]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you don't have any / enough bass traps, deal with that first before worrying about adding a sub. Your speakers are rated down to 41 Hz, which is low enough for most music work.

Let me rephrase...

I don't think I have a bass trap issue. My mixes generally translate quite well. I don't have any bass traps per se, but being in a large room may help. Sometimes when my mixes are played back on a larger system, I find I've mis-judged the sub-bass frequencies. Sometime there's information there I didn't know was there. Sometimes there's just nothing there. My thought was that adding some kind of a sub just as a check would benefit me. I interpreted your response to the OP as implying that more room treatment was the answer. I was looking for clarification on that.

You also suggested using headphones to check sub-bass and I asked for a suggestion of headphones that could handle that, since I don't think I've ever had a pair that goes low enough to reveal sub-bass information.

[bonestar]

Originally Posted by gammalord

A sub in the wrong room can do quite a bit of harm to the final mix.

I keep seeing people say this, but if it's just used as a check (i.e. the mix sounds good both with it and without it), how could it hurt the final mix? I'm not arguing the point, just seeking clarification. Because I do see a lot of people reccomend against subs. I just don't understand how it could be harmful if only used as an additional reference, much in the way people use Auratones or another equivalent band-limited/"crap" speaker.