Deessing Hi Hats

[vaesion]

Is it a common practice for pro engineers to deess hi hats?

B

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by vaesion

Is it a common practice for pro engineers to deess hi hats?

B

No, occasionally maybe, but it isn't common practice.

Deessing is mainly useful for full spectrum sound sources where there may be a need to reduce the level of sibilant frequencies with respect to the rest.

Hi-hats produce sound which is almost exclusively within the sibilant frequency range, so deessing them *on their own* would be essentially the same as compressing them (but less satisfactory).

It's not usually preferable to deess a combined percussion track either because if you do, ambience and the sounds of other drums will be compressed when they coincide with hi-hat and other cymbals strokes and this will produce audible 'pumping'. At best you might use it for a special effect.

If you have a 'damage control' problem after submix (ie after the drum tracks are combined and you can no longer compress the hi-hat separately) then either moderate eq or multiband compression will generally give a better result than deessing. YMMV.

[Jose Mrochek]

actually the part I love most about hi-hat´s are the ssssss sss .. I doubt anyone de-esses them.

[Kiwiburger]

I've heard of people de-essing a snare track to get rid of unwanted high hats ...

[cap217]

I am going to go against this thread.... I have done it a couple times and I know of pretty respected people doing this as well! Is it "regular" practice??? NO!!! But it does work for bad mic or preamp tech. If it sounds good do it!

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by cap217

...If it sounds good do it!

No argument with that... !

[cap217]

Hell, I have De-essed a whole mix before.... a few times! Never recommend it but it works for those tracks I get to mix that sound like trash!!! To me it is like a software Fatso Jr....

[yeloocproducer]

You can get away with a little of this if it's done carefully on the snare track. I've even drawn in attacks on each snare in the snare track with automation to get the high hat out. But only in an absolute emergency, and it's best just to use a little bit and not go overboard, otherwise you'll hear weird stuff going on in your kit as described above. Also, there is a thread on de-essing in the mastering forum regarding this kind of thing when it's a problem on a whole mix. Doable, but you want to avoid it. Alot of guys when they're cutting vinyl will de-ess the whole mix to get it pressed the right way as well... too much sibilance will ruin a vinyl pressing.

[Dave Derr]

Early on, I used to add top end to hi hats, only to have them end up being a hissy mess when combined with the rest of the kit, and instruments. Especially with less than experienced drummers, they are sometimes smashed along with the rest of the cymbals, making it almost impossible to get a nice smooth balance. Sometimes you just have to turn the damned hi hat track off and let the overheads and other bleed pick up the hi hat. A good drummer will play the cymbals easy and get a good balance between the set, making adjustments for each section of the song, and for each song itself. Dont be afraid to ask the drummer to lighten up on the cymbal smashing. Most inexperienced drummers dont have very good independance of hands, so when they are smashing the snare, they will also smash the cymbals.

Later on I sometimes found that cutting low end on the hi hat kept it sweeter, and more natural. I have seen people pull 2 - 5 K (4K?) from the cymbals or hi hats and it would make them easier on the ears, especially with digital recorders.

De-essing the snare track or splitting the snare to a compressed/deessed track can also help that annoying build up of hat bleed. When gating the snare, the hi hat will come in and out with the gate. This is where I have found de-essing the snare most useful. Never sit there and eq each drum while it is soloed... it all has to work together. You will often use the close mics to fill in missing freqs on the overheads or room mics, or the rest of the mixed kit mikes. This can make the soloed close mic sound like friggin CRAP, but the whole kit works together. God help you if the drummer asks to hear the snare mics soloed!

When it came time to decide between REAL SNARE, or SAMPLED SNARE, Hissy hi hats have probably been the last straw in thousands of major mixes. If you have an inconsistent snare that wont sit nicely in the mix and has too much hat bleed , consider replacing the snare with a sample, or at least some of the snare hits with other "hatless" hits.

Drums can be extremely frustrating when you dont have great drum tracks and a great drummer. Conversely, having a great drummer in a good room with good mics, can make a good end result so much easier to achieve.

[thethrillfactor]

Are u guys still micing hihats?

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Are u guys still micing hihats?

yep all the time. Luckily I get great drummers here most of the time who have a real internal balance. Sometimes the hat gives you alittle more air for the snare.

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Are u guys still micing hihats?

Here we go again.

SM.

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by slipperman

Here we go again.

SM.

The next time you record drums wil you record the hat separately? If I do, wil you penalize me?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Sometimes the hat gives you alittle more air for the snare.

I totally understand.


Its just when i see a hat track lately i go huh?


For my personal taste i am tucking the hats so low for mixes that its almost non existant.

I am also EQing and treating it as a whole with the overheads.


It helps the drums sound more like a whole.


But that's me.


I much prefer to see a room mic track than a hihat track which i see half the time.

[AdamJay]

i don't de-ess, but on the subject of close mic'ing hats: if i have a drummer who's got a real dark pair of hats or unlathed hats (usually a jazz drummer) then i'll close mic it and roll off damn near everything under 14khz in that channel to help the hats sssssssssss in the mix. oh, and **** phase alignment when close mic'ing hats.

otherwise, the overheads and room mic and hell even the snare mic together are just fine for hi-hats.

[hollis]

yes, If there really is alot of hat spill on the snare track and its taking my head off I'll patch in something like a dbx deesser over the snare and dial out the hats. It works really well. Assistant engineers just look at me like a spastic when I do it.

[Gomez]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I totally understand.

I much prefer to see a room mic track than a hihat track which i see half the time.

This is the same approach I have adopted for last couple of years.

I once did de-essing on a snare track as it was one of those drummers that bang the hi-hats louder than everything else in the kit and it worked fine.

I used to think that the room where I normally record drums was too bright, therefore the prominent hi hat problem. But these days it seems like it has to do with the drummer more than anything else.

[tomdarude]

Dave Derr didn´t tell us all the truth...

a great trick, I learned on gearslutz (from Michael Brauer actually) is taming nasty hihats with the "warmth"-setting on the fatso !

I tried it a few days later in a studio, worked really great, .....such a shame I don´t have a fatso, yet

[picksail]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I much prefer to see a room mic track than a hihat track which i see half the time.

What's a room mic?

I always thought that fader was supposed to be all the way back.

[DirkB]

With a not so good drummer, the hi-hat mic is useless most of the time. With a great drummer, it's easy to get the drums sounding good without the use of a seperately miced hi-hat, but it can just add that little extra definitation in a dense track where the hi-hat serves as the groovemaster .

I always throw up a mic, but don't spend too much worrying about it.
I don't have a favourite hi-hat preamp for example .

I very rarely compress the hi-hat track if I use it and most of the times roll of some lowend. No rules there, might be a little, might be a high-pass filter set at 12k, whatever works.


Greetings,
Dirk

P.S. As a drummer, I absolutely HATE extremely panned hi-hats. Sounds crazy unnatural and somehow messes with my brane... Close to the center, near to the snare is where I hear it

[tamasdragon]

Almost always mic the hihat, almost never deess it. Hard disk space is cheap, why not track hihat? Later you can decide whether to use it or not.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[studjo]

started last year with "micing the hat" again. Sometimes that track makes it to the mix

I never deessed it - put that damn fader down



Jo

[Improv]

Originally Posted by DirkB

I don't have a favourite hi-hat preamp for example .

Neither did I till I tried a 9098. The hipass on that thing just works better than plugin filtering on hats for some reason.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by tamasdragon

Almost always mic the hihat, almost never deess it. Hard disk space is cheap, why not track hihat? Later you can decide whether to use it or not.
Regards Tamas Dragon

Yeah but we aren't talking about the choice of bottomn micing a snare or bottomn micing toms.


If you don't know if it will work in tracking than will you know?


In the mix?


What has changed by the time you mix that's influenced the decision?


And dessing hihats?


I am sorry but something is wrong there.

[tamasdragon]

I don't think that anyone can do everything without errors. I rather put up extra mics and not use it later than lose something. I have never deessed hihat. But I heard a few who did. I really care only the end result, and if take that you need to deess the hihat, than do it.
Regards Tamas Dragon

[Improv]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Yeah but we aren't talking about the choice of bottomn micing a snare or bottomn micing toms.


If you don't know if it will work in tracking than will you know?


In the mix?

That's great if you're taking a track from alpha to omega. But if you're just mixing, what you're asking of your tracking engineers is the confidence to say "this track doesn't need more hat, so I'm not going to record it." But unless you have an intimate relationship with said tracking engineer, along with the many unstated, understood nuances that develop from such an arrangement, chances are they're going to take a "cover my ass" approach and cut the damn hat, leaving it to you to mute it.

Sure, we all want perfectly thought-out tracking with no fluff or waste, but working with unknown tracks from unknown engineers, wouldn't you rather have the "cover my ass" guy more often?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Improv

Sure, we all want perfectly thought-out tracking with no fluff or waste, but working with unknown tracks from unknown engineers, wouldn't you rather have the "cover my ass" guy more often?

When i was a tracking engineer exclusively i prided myself on having my tracks easy to and ready to mix by just throwing up the faders.


I also wanted to prove that i could do both and that an outside mix guy wasn't needed so i had to do it in a way where the client would question themselves afterwards by asking what did the mega mixing guy do to it.


Being on the other side for a bunch of years now i still look for that in the tracks i get to mix.


This year i've been lucky with a couple.


Believe you me give me a song that is ready to go without the extra fluff and i will be...


I don't need all the extra takes, extra mics that will be taken out anyway and auxilliary tracks.


The song should be clear as day and sonically strong.



Basically it should sound almost there.


Maybe that's just me but when i first hear the song that i've been hired to mix i want to keep the first impression throughout the process.



Wading through unneeded tracks just slows it down.



Mixing i've said a million times its just the first 2 hours when the inspiration is fresh and the last hour when you are wrapping it up.


Everything else in between is biding time till the inevitable.

[timmy]

The FATSO can help on ITB mix's where the hats are too spikey. King of the hill 'tho for mix's, is the Weiss DS1. It can tame a loud hat or re-EQ metallic sounding hats into something much sweeter, especially typical samples & loops used in a lot of electronica,
TIMMMY!!

[macr0w]

I've been playing the drums for 20 years. I've been recorded by engineers in the past and in the last 5 years I have recorded a good handfull of other drummers as well as myself. And I have never been compelled to track the hi-hat. I may be an amateur but I seem to get plenty of hi-hat with the overheads.

[Ribbonmicguy]

Originally Posted by e-cue

The next time you record drums wil you record the hat separately? If I do, wil you penalize me?

I willpenalize you definitely cue! stike stike stike

Much Love Cue!