New synths poor investments, thoughts?

[MikeMitchell]

I've been trying to find some original pricing on various synths. Ex. the access C and KC. Wanting to compare them to the current going rate on ebay, see how much I'm going to lose my ass if I buy a TI. Going price is about 2500 @ online retailers. Seems like most Access and Waldorf boards a generation back go about a grand. Seems what people are willing to pay for outdated technology. If they were introduced at near 2500 thats a 1500 hit.

Do we usually see a price drop on new boards after a few months, should I hold out? Try to find a cheap dealer? I just can't see dropping that much cash on a digital instrument. They minimoog I could MAYBE see spending that much, but damn, thats analog and should last me for life.

And on a side note, anyone think dropping the extra cash for the actual keys instead of the rack unit is a completely worthless idea?
Thanks for any interest
Mike

[aussie_techie]

it will always happen you just have to bite the bullet and buy one, check the used market for the last generation.

i think its best to have a keyboard then add a couple of rack units, you still need to control them somehow. another option is to spend the money on the rack unit and get a cheeper keyboard just for a controler, its often alot cheeper

[eightyeightkeys]

Live or Studio or both ?

I write, arrange and record in my own private studio so my current needs could be different than yours. I don't play live anymore. Haven't for years and years.

But, when I did play live an 88 key controller was a must. I used a controller to access all the sounds from all of my rack mount units so zone splitting and automatic patch selection was a must. One patch number would automatically split and call up all sounds at once. Cool !

I used (and still use) my trusty PC88 into an Access MIDI Mapper (a dinosaur/paper weight now - and expensive !!! Phew !!!)

But, in the studio, I can't see buying any hardware synths anymore. Just taking a sampler/rompler as one example...there is nothing out there can can compare with a VSTi sampler. What sampler can handle an 8GB (or more) piano sound ?

In fact, my K2000RS has been For Sale for a long, long while and no one wants it. I mean who wouldn't want a sampler with a fully expanded 64MB's! of RAM ? I haven't turned it on for probably a year now.

[Tom Sigmond]

You cannot compare a Virus against soft synths. Only the Virus on the Powercore card comes close for the rest neither.

I wouldn't be so agear to get the TI. The main difference with the C is that it has integrated soft things. And as we speak; a lot of people have problems with the TI get it integrated with their DAW.

The C version is the same sound engine. The TI has an extra SAW OSC but you don't need it really. The OSC's that are in the C are for 99% what the TI has.
The TI has more presets dough. But the C has still planty also.

If you don't mind working with an hardware synth. Buy the C. It will save you a lot. You can invest that money better.


gr. Tom

[dnaflr2]

I would only buy hardware if it could offer something a soft synth could not- such as real analog architecture, etc. I don't want to knock the Virus, but it is an all digital synth being run by processors and a DA stage. With top of the line soft synth and AD/DA interface you can match or beat this.

In terms of resale value- DSP synths don't quite hold thier value compared to thier analog counterparts.

[Tommy-boy]

I'm in favor of hardware synths for several reasons:

1 - Few VSTi's are up to their quality.

2 - There are NO obsolecence issues. Think of all the plug in companies that sprouted up and then went under. Think of all of the plugins that worked on your DAW software version XX.XX and are no longer supported. You will not have this problem with hardware. You'll always be able to use your hardware, regardless of OS and DAW spec changes.

3 - Quality sounds takes a lot of processing power. It makes sense to use hardware over VSTi's to cut strains on the processor.

4 - Fun factor. Hard to explain this one - but playing with hardware seems like more fun and more creative. This is totally subjective though.

5 - Go for the sound you want. If hardware has the sound you want and a vsti doesn't - then get the hardware (and vice versa). I currently have a Supernova 2. This is a fanfvckingtastic keyboard that is capable of a lot that isn't readily (and easily) avail in a VSTi's (with the possible exception of the virus on powercore). There's a lotta knobs to fiddle with here.

6 - Most DAWs support (and even provide the capability to create and edit) flexible panels for controlling hardware. So you have all of the flexibility of computer editing with the processing being in your rack.

My keyboard hardware arsenal is as follows:
1 - Kurzweil PC88mx. I'll give this one up when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

2 - Roland XV-3080 (2 of 'em) almost fully loaded

3 - Roland MBD1 (like drum/bass expansion card)

4 - Korg Poly 61 - my first synth. Still works and I still use it.

5 - Yamaha DX 100

6 - Novation Supernova2 - This is just an awesome synth.


My take on keyboard vs rack versions is get rack unless you feel you won't fiddle with it because it's out of reach. For this reason I keep my DX100 on a shelf on the rack to encourace fiddling.

-Tommy

[seaneldon]

if your main interest is investments and investing, go into real estate. way less headaches.

buy something because it sounds good. if you plan on selling it within a year or so...don't buy it.

[Dirty Halo]

Pick any hardware synth that is 3-4 years old...

How much can you pick that up for today? And is it still good?

Now pick ANY soft synth that same age...

Ho much is it worth, if anything? And can you even play it? ...or will you in the future?


END OF STORY.


Andrews

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com

[octatonic]

I've been buying up all the analog, digital and VA synths that I can in the last year- there are some incredible bargains around at the moment.

I'd rather spend $2000 on getting 8-10 s/h hardware synths than dropping $2k on a newish synth.
I think I have about 35 hardware synths at the moment- they all get used and abused in a variety of ways.
It's fun, looks very impressive and I might end up making money one day.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by MikeMitchell

I've been trying to find some original pricing on various synths. Ex. the access C and KC. Wanting to compare them to the current going rate on ebay, see how much I'm going to lose my ass if I buy a TI. Going price is about 2500 @ online retailers. Seems like most Access and Waldorf boards a generation back go about a grand. Seems what people are willing to pay for outdated technology. If they were introduced at near 2500 thats a 1500 hit.

Do we usually see a price drop on new boards after a few months, should I hold out? Try to find a cheap dealer? I just can't see dropping that much cash on a digital instrument. They minimoog I could MAYBE see spending that much, but damn, thats analog and should last me for life.

And on a side note, anyone think dropping the extra cash for the actual keys instead of the rack unit is a completely worthless idea?
Thanks for any interest
Mike

i have the TI and used to have the virus C, i love my TI and think its awsome but was really pissed for a while cause the the people at access fuked up w the software for the longest while, now it works as a charm and frikin great.

it is the same engine as the virus C. and i think kc but i dunno much about the kc.
i do know that u cant compare the sound of the virus to a softsynth unless its the virus powercore which i hheard sound the same as the hardware counterpart.
i had synths that cost around 500 like the ms2000 and sh32 and those synths sounded like VSTis but the virus definitly surpasses them and its sound shaping is just fenomenal.

as for the price you can get the virus C keyboard version. i like the TI cause u have the plugin. save patches and recall 16 patches ina song automaticly. i just started to get bored of having a midi interface, recording the audio of what i recorded in midi and then cant changed it if a week later i wanted the song in another key. unless using sysex stuff and other shit i just dont want to spend the time iinto. w the TI was so convinient.

the virus c u can find cheaper than before now that the TI came out.

go to soicsynth.com where u see the used price of symths.


if u have a controller then get the rack version, its only the key thats extra and if u want to use it live .


i saw the C for sale really cheap in ebay and craigslist (LA +NY).

[gsilbers]

ok, so i found out the KC is the C plus the keys. and that its on LA criagslist for 1300. which is about a grand less than theTI and basically the same sound engine.

[popmann]

After years of screwing with soft synths, I've gone back to 90% hardware. I keep the PC around in order to run the now worthless (monetarily) Gigastudio 2.5 for the occassional solo string, or acoustic piano...and for the time being the NI B4.

But, if it died (again)...it wouldn't be replaced. The B4 sticks around until I get off my butt and decide whether I want to get a C3/Leslie down here or just get a great sounding old 122/preamp and use my various Voce and Kurzweil hardware organ models to feed it.

Call me old fashioned, but I'll take a hardware piece with 80% of the sound quality that works 100% of the time over the best 100% sample that works perfectly 60% of the time.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

and I might end up making money one day.

Aw, get out. You'll blow the curve for the rest of us.

[Mario-C.]

the virus Ti has wavetables, the extra saw, more polyphony ... the older virus C does not, IMO the Ti is like a C on hypersteroids, coke and crystal meth, well worth the $ if you're going to use the extra features, if not get the C and have fun

[Daddy No]

Most keyboards seem to drop about half their value with a few years, a bit like cars.

After seeing this happen to some which I bought years ago i have tended to buy second hand and have never regretted it. then you can generally sell for what you buy for; the prices seem to plateau.

The keys vs rack units is an interesting one. Logically you should have one good keyboard and a load of boxes. But having it all on one surface does seem to invite you to play around with it a bit more?

If you do look at racks & would think older than a couple of years there are some serious brilliant options in your price range (Nord Lead 2, the Midimini, MKS80...)

:J

[Tibbon]

I'd say that hardware synths are still the way to go. All of mine are certainly not replaceable by software. I don't make 'investments' long term on equipment, except for an investment musically for the use of them. I could care less about the resale value of my Sidstation (which happens to be up...) because you'd have to pry if from my cold dead hand (in the other hand is my Minimoog). I'm not selling. If you buy things you like the first time, and you can make good music with them the first time... then it's still valid later.

If you buy crappy synths the first time, then yea... your Roland Fantom or whatever will be crap in 20 years, but I'm almost certain that my Moog will still be a valid and respected instrument.

In short: Stay the hell away from romplers. If you like the sound of an analogue/analogue modeling synth then get it and be happy with it. Don't jump as soon as you hear a demo that has 2 notes more polyphony. Polyphony is overrated, as are the number of oscilators IMHO.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by popmann

Call me old fashioned, but I'll take a hardware piece with 80% of the sound quality that works 100% of the time over the best 100% sample that works perfectly 60% of the time.

Well, I do have to say... calling a Hammond organ reliable unless you have a full time tech for it... well you aren't going to get 100% of the time perfect use at least

[popmann]

Well, I do have to say... calling a Hammond organ reliable unless you have a full time tech for it... well you aren't going to get 100% of the time perfect use at least

Thus one of the concerns in moving on that...upkeep expense. Although, there are techs in town who swear with yearly preventative once overs, it should be all up time. Again...not sure I'll be going that route. I have a nother organ playing friend who says he's happy as pie with his Korg Bx3. I've heard an old Xk2 (or similar old Hammond digital) through an old Leslie--that's more than enough organ tone for me, and since I've got the Vove V3 here...technically, I'm in the market for a Leslie. Unfortunately, I'm not the only one...and they're hard to come by on their own.

[covert]

Seems to me that there is a near bathtub curve on the stuff that is really worth anything. I bought a Prophet V at the nadir for around $500. Can't touch one now for three to four times that amount. I recall when Mini Moogs went around $250. DX7 seems to have hit a price and stuck there, same with D50 and it's ilk. Usually seems to be around a 5 to 7 year cycle. If it hasn't come back up by then, it probably never will.

[rufus13]

When you buy an instrument, you are __Spending__ money: It's GONE. The return is going to be in the USE of the instrument. Get playing!

Sure, you can sell an instrument, but expect to get 20% of what you paid, IF it is a desirable model with a following. If that's the case, why not keep it?

Churning your gear with a loss at each trade is a terrible thing. Save for a bit and buy fewer of the very best you can reach. Save, try, research, bargain. A handbuilt custom amp will make you happy long time, as will the best microphones made by Alpine gnomes in cave workshops, or their California competitors.

The comparison to automobiles is a good one (minus the ever-increasing cost of fuel and insurance). Car DEALERS can make money on cars, and music DEALERS can make money on instruments on a regular basis, but regular people selling their personal gear should not expect to.

An INVESTMENT for a musician is probably best made through a financial planner or a real estate broker (buy yourself a house to live in!). The value of an account goes up while you do nothing but make music, or you eventually don't make payments on the mortgage (fixed-rate, 15+ years, no ballon payment) about the time you retire.

It sucks to be young without money, but it suuuuuucks to be old and broke.

Think long-term. Other posts have covered my opinion of all software.

Cheers.

Karl

[gsilbers]

i got rid of all my harware synths and bought a virus TI. i just gave up on having so much stuff around. synths +racks+ midi cables+imidi interface+audio cables/interface+patch recall+
complicated logic environments...

i had the virus C and the sound is similar if not the same as the TI.


basically the advantage of hardware is control of the parameters. unless you have ableton live that makes control assigenment to and from a contol to softsynths a breeze.

also the sound is just a bit better. its like the diference when you add overdubs of a violin to a samples/secuenced orchestra to make sound more "real"

some sounds of the TI/c are like softsynts, like some leads and basses.. but others are just amazing.

also , i might sugest getting a used virus C and buying presets for it. vengeance-sounds.de makes some cool ones. so your virus C will be upto date in style.

the amazing thing of the virus is that you can grab any preset and just tweek anything and it will sound totally different in seconds. just add a little FM to a patch and seems like you made up a who9le new patch cause of the sound diference.

which in softsynths there is not many sonic diferences.


so choose the TI.. kinda price cause of the virus C engine and the USB audio interface. if you dont mind midi/audio cables and midi/audio interfaces.. as well as recalling patches, then the virus C is the way to go. its the saame sounds and quality as the TI.

[cosmos]

I just love all the cables/midi/racks/audio/patches/synths/cymbals,mic's, youmaneit all around me, gives me a spaceship control room feeling , any hardware ( the older, the better ) will be more then welcome here i just keep collecting them ALL !

Peace Out !

" Anti VST Groop " - October 9th, 2006 !