UA 610 Clipping?

[DP40oz]

Hey guys ive heard so much about Universal Audio's 610 preamp clipping and distorting very easily. I just got one about a week ago and have been using it constantly and it sounds great. I havent heard any distorting or clipping at all. Actually its exactly what i was hoping for, warm, thick and beautiful sounding. Am i missing something? Where should i be hearing this distorting? Anyone who's experienced problems with this preamp can you let me know what i should be looking for. I hate to sound like a newbie, which im not but ive used many pre's and have never seen so much talk about one that distorts so easily, but i havent seen that at all. Just curious.

[jdjustice]

Well it's good to hear at least you are having good results with this unit. It is so attractively priced that initially I thought... "there MUST be SOMETHING wrong... how can it be so affordable??" ... but I really want to like this unit. Please post again if you discover the clipping. I have heard many people on this forum talk about that problem. I would like to hear it's not true... I love UA's stuff generally.

j.d.

[danna]

if you turn the gain vari. switch down and crank up the gain knob (the big ****er) you'll hear the distortion. it's not bad, it's musical but it's there. if you want a super clean sound keep the gain knob down fairly low and turn up the gain vari. switches. - if you want it dist turn down the gain vari. switches and use the gain knob. it's sort of like a guitar amp, with the gain being the distortion knob and the volume being the vari. switches. that's not a technical answer but it's a musical one!

[danna]

p.s. - thats with the 6176 which is the 610 and 1176 in the same unit.

[marchhare]

I've been using the M-610 for almost a year now and I really like it. I don't have a
problem with it clipping either. I love it on electric guitars and as a d.i. for bass.
I replaced the 12ax7 w/ a nos Mullard and it got even nicer.

[Andi Rauscher]

i LOVE mine.
you won´t have any problems with it if you know what you are doing.
shure, it will distort when you crank it, but that´s what it´s supposed to do!!!
after all, it´s a tube unit, and i really dig the sound you get with a Jazz bass if you distort it!!! just crank it all up, makes a great Ampeg Sound!

[TheSweetener]

Is there a difference between the new desktop version and the old two channel device?

At Uaudio.com they say about the the new desktop version:
"the SOLO/610 has continuous a Gain control with even greater range, allowing for more precise gain structuring and doubles as input signal padding."

[DivideByZero]

To people who don't run into headroom problems: What version of the pre are you using (there seems to be differences in the 610 incarnations between the M-610/2-610, LA-610, and 6176), and what sort of mics are you using? I had the M-610, and constantly fought with its low headroom on any condenser; I liked the overall "color", and would have loved the unit if I could have gotten rid of the clipping, and may give it another chance if there's one version that's deemed better at handling the headroom issue than the others.

[doorknocker]

I'm using the 6176 and never had any clipping problems. I often use the 6176 for vocals and acoustic guitars with the 'Gain' level seldom set @ less than 0 or +5.

IF the 6176 gets into overdrive then it's on purpose. I love it as a FOK drum channel with the 1176 side in 'All in' mode.

I've used the 6176 for about 3 years now and never had any issues with it. Great piece of gear and very well constructed!

[borau]

The 6176 has got a 15 dB pad, the 610 and 2-610 hasn't.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by borau

The 6176 has got a 15 dB pad, the 610 and 2-610 hasn't.

I never had to use the Pad on my 6176, if it's a super-loud source miced by a condenser then I'll put up a Shure inline pad.

Something would be seriously wrong if you'd need a Pad for something like acoustic guitars or vocals.

[DivideByZero]

Originally Posted by borau

The 6176 has got a 15 dB pad, the 610 and 2-610 hasn't.

Yes, I was using an inline pad with my M-610 and still ran into problems. I'm guessing that there's some major difference in the gain staging between the various models, pads and switches aside. Or maybe there's a very, very wide variance between individual units. So far, it looks like people with the 6176 seem to like that incarnation of the 610, so perhaps there's more going on under the hood?

[DP40oz]

I own an M610 not the 6176 and theres no clipping or distorting that i hear. Now im paranoid though and listening way too closely to see if im getting unwanted distortion on vocal tracks and what not. Is this type of clipping that people talk about very obvious or do you have to listen really closely to hear it, because i havent heard anything yet but maybe im just not educated on what im looking to hear. I've distorted other preamps before and its usually very obvious.

[syra]

There is nothing wrong with this unit.

Its an older design that has limited headroom because none of the mics of that era had the output of the modern mics (which you can just plug into a line input!). When I use vintage mics with it, there is no problem at all. When I use modern designs, I use the inline shure pad...problem solved.

My guess is you're using either an older mic or one with a moderate output level.

[Lerxst]

I have had the la-610 for about a year now, and the unit does not have any clipping issues that I'm aware of - great little unit.

I HAD a 2-610.

It clipped. You could avoid it if you put the effort into it.
I don't think I was ever able to use it with drums w/o mic pads.
And it doesn't stack well. I have the same issue with 1272's so maybe it is me.

I found the risk/reward to not be worth having it.

It is far from steller, and is complicated by most pre standards.

I like stuff that I can work a little faster with. Not worry so much about headroom.

I not saying it was a bad pre, but I am not saying it good either.

There are too many pres in that price range that I prefer which have reasonable headroom and are way more useful in my situation.

It does look cool!
And it can sound cool too!
I did like it on direct acoustic guitar........ to bad I don't like direct acoustic guitar for anything other than writing.


Good luck.


D

[1176]

Actually, the tolerances between units is fairly stringent. I know, I used to bench test at UA in the early days. The circuit and staging should identical or nearly identical between the various incarnations of the 610. I'll break it down:

First came the 2-610, and shortly after the M-610. Obviously one is two channel, one is single channel. These units are exactly the same except for the EQ. While the 2-610 has a two band shelving EQ for each channel, the M-610 has a much simpler two band EQ giving two fixed high shelf boost positions and two low cut filter positions.

Neither unit has a pad.

Later UA released the 6176, which combined the 610 with the 1176 compressor. The 610 section is identical to a single channel of the 2-610 in every way, except for the addition of a 15 dB pad, and access to the preamp's output level at the meter.

Yes, clipping was an issue for some users, and that's why we added the pad. I have the 2-610, and rarely encounter a headroom issue. I think it comes down to how you use it (and the mics you use with it, see below). However, I do have a pair of Pro Co 15 dB inline pads for the rare occasion I need to pad down the input of the 2-610.

Keep in mind the original 610 console was designed and used before high output condenser mics came into popularity. Also keep in mind nobody was shoving mics up one inch from the source in those days. Ribbon mics (and dynamics) were king at the time of the 610 desk, and so the mics used were well suited for that preamp. Keeping that in mind, it's not that you CAN'T use condensers with the 610, actually they sound quite wonderful. The only issue I see is combining close miking techniques, with a really loud source and a rediculously hot mic (the TLM 103 comes to mind). In all seriousness, if the line input on the 610 had phantom power, you could probably hook some modern mics up there instead.

Next came the LA-610. This unit combined the 610 with the sidechain circuit of the LA-2A. This is probably the most misunderstood (but most popular) 610 incarnation. Unlike the 6176 which is really a complete 610 and a complete 1176 side by side in one unit, the 610 is different. Instead of a complete 610 and LA-2A, the LA-610 inserts only the sidechain of the LA-2A into the original 610 circuit. They may not be used as two discrete units. The circuit begins with the typical 610 tranformer/12AX7 stepped input stage. Then an ADDITIONAL 12AX7 gain stage not found on the previous 610 incarnations is found at the preamp Level pot (biggest difference right there). Next is the compressor section, which is identical to the LA-2A sidechain in every way, including components. Finally, the compressor feeds the typical output stage of 6072/output transformer, essentialy acting as compressor make up gain and final output gain. The LA-610 is a bit more complicated, but a clever design. I LOVE the additional middle gain stage which gives you that much more tonal variety. I like the contribution from the guy who said to think of the gain like a guitar amp.

Currently is the SOLO/610 (and SOLO/110). It is nearly identical to the original 610, but there is no EQ section and no line input. However, there is a simple rumble filter. Also the input gain is not stepped with the SOLO/610 BUT you can pad down the input an additional 8 dB on the input. The SOLO/610 adds useful line/mic output switch plus "thru" features making it nice for stage use.

Hope this helps!

-Will.

[newnes]

Hey DP40oz. I wouldn't be paranoid about it. I only heard the nasty clipping that people descibe one time while I had it. It was with a singer who has a HUGE voice - like so loud that it's painful to stand in the same room while he's singing and even then it would only clip when he REALLY pushed it. Never had any problems with normal singers, electric guitars, bass, drums, etc. You can get a nice subtle distortion though by turning up the gain switches and lowering the level knob.

Craig.

[Sensater]

Will, thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge, very helpful.

We just got an M610 where I work and I'd like to explore upgrading the tubes. The boss probably won't go for NOS stuff, can anyone suggest some reasonably priced alternatives (and sources for tubes)? This is my first direct experience w/a tube pre and I don't want to end up replacing the tubes w/something that won't make a nice difference. Also, Marchhare replaced only the 12AX7A, is that a good approach or should I go for both?

Many thanks...
-Sen

[shikawkee]

No clipping problems here.
If you do with condensers use a pad. It'll work wonders.

[TheSweetener]

Hi Will!
thanks for the infos!

Did I get you right that the Solo610 and the 6176 are the preamps with the least clipping danger?

[1176]

Sorry!

Forgot about this thread. The 6176 is the only one with a pad, and the 610 can drop an additional 8 dB on the input, so you could say that, in a way.

The 6072 in a nice NOS, I'd leave it. I found some nice used Mullards for my 2-610 for the AX7s.

[DivideByZero]

Since my last post, I found a used M-610 for considerably less than what I sold mine for... so, in a fit of questionable judgement, I bought it again. I'm like a battered wife or something; it hurts me, but I just can't leave it. I still get clipping every now and again, but keeping the levels very low and using an 1176 after it for make-up gain is working well right now. The elusive sweet-spot is still a very volatile area, though.

[popmann]

This is the key:

if you turn the gain vari. switch down and crank up the gain knob (the big ****er) you'll hear the distortion.

The opposite of what my LA610's manual says for "clean" sound...but, nonetheless--start with the big knob on 4 or 5, and get your gain from the gain knob. It's pushing the big knob past 6 or so that starts getting fizzy.

[moonpi]

Originally Posted by TheSweetener

Is there a difference between the new desktop version and the old two channel device?

At Uaudio.com they say about the the new desktop version:
"the SOLO/610 has continuous a Gain control with even greater range, allowing for more precise gain structuring and doubles as input signal padding."

Also, the 2-610 has the High and Low EQ sections on each channel where there is only a hi-pass filter on the SOLO 610. Also, there is only the Hi-Z and Lo-Z switch on the SOLO 610 where you have the input/impedance selector on the 2-610 which allows for Mic (500 Ohm or 2kOhm), line, and Hi-Z (47kOhm or 2.2MOhm).

I happen to really like the sound of the SOLO 610. I did some tests with it, simultaneously feeding the same signal to a Pacifica and a Front End Audio modified Chameleon Labs 7602 via a Radial JS3, and the character of the circuitry was such that it almost sounded like you can hear "around" the source; like it's 3 dimensional. It has a size that breaks out from the confines of the solid-state character. However, the 610 that is in the 6176 reminds me more of what I hear when I listen to Pet Sounds, which is a pretty quintessential UA 610 album. It feels just a little closer to home than it's compact counterpart.

[Steffmo]

To Reiterate:

The cleanest sound with a 610 is with the gain at the lowest setting. Yes, the 610 is a little short on headroom, BUT remember it is a reissue of a design created when mics had maybe half the gain they have today.

Good engineers have used pads to solve this kind of issue for years.

There is most likely nothing wrong with your unit that a little experience and knowledge won't cure.

I love mine on drum overheads. Big sound, bid room. the 610 is also great a making all those 414s folks around here bash sound great. They really add a lot of body to the sound.

If ayone wnats to sell a 2610 cheap I;m there in a heartbeat.

[deeper]

Some folks on this thread are confusing things by calling every knob a "gain" knob.

The LA-610 has a GAIN switch, a pad, and a LEVEL knob (the big one). It does not have a "Gain" knob. The T4 compressor has a (makeup) GAIN knob. This means there are four different places where you can screw up if you aren't careful. (Not counting the impedance selector, EQ section and compressor, which can also make or break your sound.)

The sound quality on my LA-610 ranges from fairly clean (not pristine) to fairly distorted (but not anywhere near as fuzzy as "guitar" distortion.)

If you take the time to set all the gain staging well, you can get a very "sweet" sound -- like Pet Sounds -- or a very "warm" sound (warmth = distortion). If you are clueless about gain staging, you can easily get a very crappy distorted fuzzy unusable sound, in which case you are better off with a one-knob preamp that you can't screw up. There are many out there.

[popvulture]

I've found that the LA-610 does a great job at either end of the spectrum, clean or dirty. In my experience, the first step in determining what kind of sound you want to get out of it is using the gain switch knob. Even with a mic that wants a lot of gain (like an SM7), I've had no problem adjusting the input and cranking the output to get a nice, clean sound (if that's what you want).

It's not a neutral pre, but don't let that make you to think that you can't get a good variety of tones out of it.

[DontLetMeDrown]

Originally Posted by deeper

Some folks on this thread are confusing things by calling every knob a "gain" knob.

The LA-610 has a GAIN switch, a pad, and a LEVEL knob (the big one). It does not have a "Gain" knob. The T4 compressor has a (makeup) GAIN knob. This means there are four different places where you can screw up if you aren't careful. (Not counting the impedance selector, EQ section and compressor, which can also make or break your sound.)

The sound quality on my LA-610 ranges from fairly clean (not pristine) to fairly distorted (but not anywhere near as fuzzy as "guitar" distortion.)

If you take the time to set all the gain staging well, you can get a very "sweet" sound -- like Pet Sounds -- or a very "warm" sound (warmth = distortion). If you are clueless about gain staging, you can easily get a very crappy distorted fuzzy unusable sound, in which case you are better off with a one-knob preamp that you can't screw up. There are many out there.

Great advice! I've been very happy with my UA-M610. You just have to be careful with it. Clean guitars can suffer from setting the gain too high. Honestly, clipping the unit internally does not sound so bad compared to digital clipping. I do record loud rock and metal bands and I've used the clipped tone on a few intros. In fact, you can hear a tone very similar to the clipped m610 pre on the first track of the Lamb of God album "Ashes of the Wake". Listen to the guitar on the right side with a very light high-pitched buzz. I was going to provide a link to the song on their myspace page, but I can't really hear it on their mp3 version.

[ukrania5]

I think my research will be useful for owners of old LA-610.
I've found the device doesn't work properly if power is 230V/50Hz.
Tubes work with hitting up voltage near 5V. By specification of 12AX7 the tube requires 6.3V. In addition I've measured phantom power and found it's near 40V. So, we can see the device is powered by voltage -20% reduced to nominal.

As you know this affects directly on distortion level.

Probably, this issue doesn't appear if the device uses 110V/60Hz. I can suppose UA didn't take to account difference in frequency or make elementary bug in power supply.

I know 2 devices which have identical problem described above. For first the problem was resolved partially by increase of hitting up voltage to 6V only.

For second I'm searching more complex solution. In ideal this is recommendation by UA how to modify power supply for 230V/50Hz power standard and obtain nominal mode.

If somebody has resolved the issue I will be glad to see comments.