I want an analog console (console advice)

[tactics]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

What I want is something modular

The Toft boards are not fully modular, the channels come out in banks of eight,
then the channels get removed from each bank.

[Seamus TM]

Ah.
Well, I would probably (and did at one point) go with a Neotek, then.

[kooz]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I once spent $2500 on a "vintage" [spelled O-L-D] console... $18,000 later it was AWESOME!!!

This is PRECISELY what I'm afraid of. The Euphonix CS2000 I was pretty much given came without patchbays and 3 or so years out of service, but with a pile of spares and cabling....what will it cost to commission? $10k? 20?

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I once spent $2500 on a "vintage" [spelled O-L-D] console... $18,000 later it was AWESOME!!!

LOL!!!!! thats my story

[studio1117]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I once spent $2500 on a "vintage" [spelled O-L-D] console... $18,000 later it was AWESOME!!!

You only did one like that Fletcher? I'm on about my 5th!!

[sfoote]

I can't believe I'm going to disagree with Geoff Tanner, but I've owned both a Toft and a Soundcraft Delta. I had the same number of repair problems with both, strangely. Neither had major problems, just bad pots and such. Both fixed easily.

I liked the Toft eq but the Delta had a better mix buss. The Toft kinda collapsed if too much was going on.

Of course, I'm a mixing hack, so I was probably screwing it up. But I was keeping it out of the red. It was my first board, and it was a DREAM compared to working ITB. If it was Toft or ITB, I'd take Toft.

But right now, with my anecdotal experience, I'd take the Soundcraft in your price range. Cheaper than the Toft, so you've got money for spare channels.

In full disclosure, I'm selling the Soundcraft currently.

[caryhorner]

Man, you guys are GREAT! I'm loving this thread.

Yeah, I've thought seriously about having to put money into a vintage large format board once I buy one. I'm in good hands with this. Number one, I know a couple of people who would not only give me a good, discounted rate on repairs for something like this, they'd also teach me soldering in the process. Number two, I have a good friend who could teach me soldering for free anyway, I just need to set aside time. And it looks like I'm going to have the time as my new day job schedule has me on four 10 hour shifts so I've got 3 days off. Plenty of time to learn to solder, and I'm willing to learn to put up with owning a nice, old school board.

I don't have a busy studio. In fact, I mainly do stuff with friends and occasional musicians right now. It's a slow build to recognition but I like that because I'd rather spend my day job funds on gear so I can have more engineering tools as I develop more clients. I'd love to have a real analog board in there so people could see it and use that as a selling point. I also absolutely despise mixing in the box. Me and the mouse don't get along. I need one knob per function, and the sound of audio going through analog circuits.

So, some people say Toft and others not. My repair tech friends kinda swayed me away from the Toft because of the build construction many of you have mentioned, the fact that it's not modular and the quality of construction is kinda poor (is it surface mount?). I've also read many slutz talking about how it always has this certain sound to it, which can be good and can also be bad, especially if you're not wanting that sound. Many people said that about the SSL G series I mixed on at school too, but my ears weren't that tuned to such sonic detail at the time, and it was housed in a bit of a compact cave of a room. But I did like that board (and no, I could never afford an SSL!!!)

But Cheu, you mentioned Amek. I never hear talk about them. Why is that? Have I just not been looking in the right place? I see their boards on the bay all the time. Usually they're waaay out of my price range but surely they've got some kind of reputation. Wasn't Neve involved in some of their stuff?

Telefunk, you also mentioned Harrison. Yeah, I'd buy a 32b if I could afford that! I haven't seen one for less than $15k. Did they make any quality lower end stuff? Michael Jackson's "Thriller" really speaks for itself. That record just sounds so amazing, and I know that was a Harrison.

And Stravinsky, is a Sony MPX really in the lineage of Harrison/MCI or just that particular board, the 2936? I've seen some crazy looking Sony consoles on the bay and they had the most insane looking connectors, on every channel! Like multi-pin block connectors. They were going for like $700-$1500 and appeared to be modular, if not a bit feature limited. But the cabling on that seemed more daunting than TT. What else is special about the 2936?

[rob S]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I once spent $2500 on a "vintage" [spelled O-L-D] console... $18,000 later it was AWESOME!!!

Very true.
Its not for the faint of heart.
If only some one would have warned me........
I still wouldnt have listened.
Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Factor in a complete recapping and the spares lot is extra $...

If you remove the 5534's and replace them with National LME49710's, you can remove/short out all the el caps in the module, except in the mic pre card. The entire path is then direct coupled and sounds super open and clear.
That includes the para EQ pcb and sum amps too.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Myles83

As a side note, I've had the master section and 2 input modules modded by Jim Williams. I've had to reverse the master section mods after two IC's went and I had to get the console up for a session the following day. Both modded input modules have issues.

If you like, you can return those here for repairs. I cover my work here, as long as I'm informed about problems.

[recordinghopkins]

Give me a call, and come take a soundcraft sapphyre for a test drive if you'd like. I got it on NV craigslist for $3500 in perfect shape. I'm in the boro, near MTSU.


Greg

Edit:
Don't forget the cost of cabling, patchbay, converters, etc. That stuff is where the biggest cost comes in with a console of any kind.

[caryhorner]

O.k., I just researched that Sony board. I didn't find any images of a 2900 series but I found the 3000 series and I see what you're talking about now. The boards I saw seemed more budget I think. Still modular, but not the pro quality construction and look of that 3000 board. Although, I did read someone somewhere stating that the 2900 series was more of a broadcast board and the 3000 series was of the MCI lineage. *shrugs*. I'd love to see a photo of the 2936.

[sluttygear]

I have Soundcraft TS12 for sale. Recently fixed up, all channels solid, patchbay fully set up and included, totally integrated desk, all cabling included. Ready to move and plug in and get analog!!! $4K. PM me if interested

[u b k]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

Michael Jackson's "Thriller" really speaks for itself. That record just sounds so amazing, and I know that was a Harrison.

To inject a different note into the conversation: that wasn't a Harrison, it was Bruce Swedien, and Quincy Jones, and Michael Jackson, and a *team* of the best musicians, arrangers, and writers money could buy.

I'm not being facile or patronizing, this is the god's honest and completely inescapable truth: records have to have that kind of talent involved to have that kind of sound, there's just no way around it. You could stick Bruce on a Toft ATB and Thriller would've sounded 97% the same, because it's how he puts the sound together that produces those sonics.

I've done mixes on a Soundcraft 6000, Sound Workshop 1280b, Trident 65, Toft ATB, a Neve 8128, and an API Legacy. The mixes mostly sound the same, and in fact the worst of the lot is the API Legacy because the room sucked ass and the song had zero arrangement. The Soundcraft mixes have that grainy midrange but they ooze with vibe because everything was coming off of tape. The Toft mix sounds the most classic 70's analog, because it's my most recent work and my engineering is more refined than ever.

I'd get a desk that had the features and routing you need first and foremost, and was reliable and had a solid, known service history. Sound is the third consideration, which is counterintuitive but that's my position. Your enthusiasm for learning soldering is an asset, but it will help you not in the least when a channel, bus, or power supply go down and you need them working *now*. Your tech friend might be generous, but he needs to be on call if you're to run a business and have a console be at the heart of it. If this is a personal studio, then consider the impact on your art of having a temperamental desk be the bottleneck... it can be incredibly frustrating and a huge drain on time, money, and mental energy that may be better spent elsewhere.

That's just some food for thought; most of us have been where you are, some made it thru and have the desk to show it, some of us have adapted differently, but we've all got the battle scars and everyone here is speaking the truth. Good luck with whatever you decide, but please do keep in mind that a desk is almost entirely about workflow and ergonomics and far less about sound; the sound is you, the musicians, and the song.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Jim Williams]

FWIW, I've also mixing on the Neve 8128. It was not my best experience. That console was the worst sounding piece of cr*p I've ever used, they had one down at Wonderland too that I hated. That 'mistake' lead to installing an SSL into the old Record Plant truck parked outside. I have rebuilt a few with improvements, but that's a large boat load of work to do.

Imagine the producer yelling, "more top end" when you solo every track, tracks that sounded fine flat in the tracking studio. Imagine the look on his face when you explain that the top end Neve "formant spectrum equalizer" EQ band is already full up, nothing more to get.

Have you ever seen a producer "fire" the console?

I have.

[Cookie]

yeah the toft is great. I recently did some mixes on a SSL. 2 of the SSL mixes are on an ep with 5 songs. They both have a unique sonic signature, but in some ways I almost preferred the tone of the Toft. After A/Bing the two -- I love my Toft for the price. Can't go wrong.

[claesbjo]

I have a amek BC3...That is a very solid desk. Highly recommended. Compact and sturdy and really good sound quality. Mine is fitted with Lundhal transformers on all 22 mic inputs, that is not standard, but it is pretty easily done for a tech if you get the non-transformer standard version. Never had any problems with it so far. Looks cool also.

cheers

[caryhorner]

[QUOTE=u b k;7398484]To inject a different note into the conversation: that wasn't a Harrison, it was Bruce Swedien, and Quincy Jones, and Michael Jackson, and a *team* of the best musicians, arrangers, and writers money could buy.

Yeah, I had reservations about posting that line! I do know that lots of time, effort and good people went into making that album sound the way it does. I also believe the mix bus is still very apparent on a final mix/master of any record, but it's very clear that a great effort was spent in capturing the sounds on "Thriller". And of course the performance has so much to do with the final sound, and those performances are top notch.

It's great advice though Gregory and I love the fact that you feel like on all those consoles your mixes sound about the same, which goes to show that a console isn't everything. Workflow and being able to have instant access to what I need most is my first consideration but in this case sound really is my second. I'm hoping that whatever desk I get will be a way to have a complete set of good pres and eqs such that if I ever needed more than my limited amount of outboard boxes, I'd have them. If I'm going to buy anymore outboard gear, I really want it be fancy compressors and keep the eq and mic-pres to a minimum. A good console could help me do that. That and having an analog mix buss with real faders as opposed to ITB is important to me. I really want any digital multi-tracking I do to be solely as a tape machine replacement, but I also want to have an analog mult-track down the road.

It's great to hear everyone's opinion, especially from people who have lived the industry and have worked with gear in all situations. Given my budget, I just want to make the right choice the first time. It's a big endeavor. We'll see what I come up with. I have a knack of stumbling onto killer deals, right place right time kinda luck. We'll see what happens and what I decide on.

Until then, keep the suggestions coming. I'm enjoying this read and learning about boards I never knew about.

[campers]

Originally Posted by Stravinsky

Sony MXP Console!
One suggestion would be the SONY MXP 2936- which can be found in your price range - probably in near mint condition.
Amazing summing tone in the MCI/ Harrison tradition-
but manufactured like a SONY tank- trouble free - great sound.

+1

I just got MXP 2900 in mint condition. It's a very nice console indeed. MXP2900 is the one of the last MCI designed console. The footprint is very small. The wiring is cumbersome and the connectors are hard to find, so buy one with the connecters. It has discrete summing cards (not easy to repair, but not impossible), transformer balanced outputs, VCA faders (DBX-SSL type). Channel strips are easy to take out, and they have socketed 5532 and 072 (EQ section), so opAmp upgrade mod is easy. No dynamics on channels and EQ and bussing are rather basic.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

FWIW, I've also mixing on the Neve 8128. It was not my best experience. That console was the worst sounding piece of cr*p I've ever used, they had one down at Wonderland too that I hated. That 'mistake' lead to installing an SSL into the old Record Plant truck parked outside. I have rebuilt a few with improvements, but that's a large boat load of work to do.

Imagine the producer yelling, "more top end" when you solo every track, tracks that sounded fine flat in the tracking studio. Imagine the look on his face when you explain that the top end Neve "formant spectrum equalizer" EQ band is already full up, nothing more to get.

Have you ever seen a producer "fire" the console?

I have.

Hi

The only thing that baffles me about that is that the test report in the back of the handbook will state that the console was measured flat 20Hz to 20KHz within 1dB.

Given that, are we saying that "EQ in " the path loses buckets of high frequencies? 1073's were certainly down about 4dB at 20KHz but you could still boost it by 18dB.

That producer must have had hearing issues. Too much loud music, methinks!

Posted from my iPhone

[pongmaster]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

FWIW, I've also mixing on the Neve 8128. It was not my best experience. That console was the worst sounding piece of cr*p I've ever used, they had one down at Wonderland too that I hated. That 'mistake' lead to installing an SSL into the old Record Plant truck parked outside. I have rebuilt a few with improvements, but that's a large boat load of work to do.

Imagine the producer yelling, "more top end" when you solo every track, tracks that sounded fine flat in the tracking studio. Imagine the look on his face when you explain that the top end Neve "formant spectrum equalizer" EQ band is already full up, nothing more to get.

Have you ever seen a producer "fire" the console?

I have.

like GT, i'm also baffled to read this from you, if the console was broken you should have noticed it , otherwise what leads to a comment like that?
agenda? alcohol?

[Stravinsky]

Originally Posted by campers

+1

I just got MXP 2900 in mint condition. It's a very nice console indeed. MXP2900 is the one of the last MCI designed console. The footprint is very small. The wiring is cumbersome and the connectors are hard to find, so buy one with the connecters. It has discrete summing cards (not easy to repair, but not impossible), transformer balanced outputs, VCA faders (DBX-SSL type). Channel strips are easy to take out, and they have socketed 5532 and 072 (EQ section), so opAmp upgrade mod is easy. No dynamics on channels and EQ and bussing are rather basic.

I recently picked up a near mint Sony MXP 2916 - for approx $850 -
it has the separate dynamics module with 4 discrete on board compressors and limiters-which sounds surprisingly sweet, warm, and fat analogue - very nice 16 chnl OTB summing solution. The MXP small footprint (20 module board approx 33 inches wide) is helpful when integrating Pro Tools rig- The MXP 2916 has very good headroom; excellent sounding basic EQ (sweepable mids, hi pass, fixed hi boost/ cut, fixed lo boost/cut; individual outs on each channel; 3 aux sends; VCA grouping; multiple monitor facility; two pairs of stereo group bus outputs; main mix outs, talk back communication module etc. It is basic, highly functional and sounds great. In certain ways the MXP 2900 anticipated the need for summing mixers. I was able to track down an additional full set of 20 connectors (45 pin) for $10 each-and work out a wiring diagram - based on the pin out specs in the manual. The connectors are actually quite flexible- but do take a bit of time to figure out, because they provide a decent range of in / out routing per connector. The manual has a very clear pin out list. I recently sent the wiring diagram and final specs to Redco- for Mogami snakes to be fitted and dressed. I listened to the board quite carefully with some of the old cabling that came w/ the board- and when I heard it - knew immediately that it had what I was looking for sonically. These MXP 2900's were originally fitted out as Pro Broadcast consoles- and were mainly used to mix television, radio programs and multi language stem mixes. They were often used to relay analog program mixes to digital video tape decks such as Sony D2 and Digital Betacam. MXP 2916 originally sold for apprx 20k in 1991. These consoles were built at the MCI factory that Sony purchased. They sound truly excellent. Simple done right at this level...is a good thing.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

If you remove the 5534's and replace them with National LME49710's, you can remove/short out all the el caps in the module, except in the mic pre card. The entire path is then direct coupled and sounds super open and clear.
That includes the para EQ pcb and sum amps too.

Ohhh man, i really think you know what you do, and its nothing personal Jim, but dont you get tired of that speech?

[David_Kessler]

Hey caryhorner, I'm about 4 hours east of Nashville and use an ATB16 in my place. Let me know if you want to check it out in a "real world" setting.

[caryhorner]

Hey Stravinsky, when you say it has VCA grouping, is that "channel linking" where you control all faders from their respective points together? I thrive on that sort of thing. I use it in Pro-Tools all the time.

As for the two stereo sub groups, are they assignable independent of the master stereo bus? That Soundcraft 200 I mixed on was set up so that every channel went through the subgroups before going to the master bus and you couldn't change that. You just chose which buss group you wanted but there wasn't a separate switch for the master buss.

You say it has a multiple monitor function and a main mix out. How does this work?

I'm assuming the "16" in 2916 is a reference to the number of channels it has. I've seen this number change in my research. I'm really liking this Sony more and more, and especially at the price and footprint.

Could you send me a good photo of a channel strip and the master section? I've seen some pictures online but they're not that great.

And does this thing have mic pres in it or is it just a line mixer?

[caryhorner]

Actually, I just found a photo that has some nice closeups of that board, and I'm pretty sure that was the same model I saw on eBay last year (it was certainly some Sony board, and it looked very similar).

Sony MXP2900 broadcast-mixer - Synthforum

This one has a four channel compressor strip in it. Do you have that? That's pretty slick. And also, where did you find those connectors for $10? Lucky find or some electronic supply place? Are you wired into a standard 1/4" patch bay or TT (or are you using a patch bay at all)?

I'm liking this console more and more. It seems to fit my needs exactly and the going price is way better than I anticipated. I can live without Q control on the EQ, reluctantly, and deal with a small, odd number of aux sends. Just one more would have been better but it's no real loss.

[caryhorner]

Originally Posted by David_Kessler

Hey caryhorner, I'm about 4 hours east of Nashville and use an ATB16 in my place. Let me know if you want to check it out in a "real world" setting.

Well, the next time I go back to my hometown of Bristol, VA (YEAH BUDDY!), I'll have to look you up.

What part of town you in? I grew up on Woodland Drive, near State St. United Methodist church (the VA side). It's the big hill at the intersection of Valley Drive and Long Crescent. My parents live on Lawrence Ave and I've got family and friends in other parts of town, including the TN side.

You get a lot of clients in Bristol?

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Ohhh man, i really think you know what you do, and its nothing personal Jim, but dont you get tired of that speech?

Not as tired as I am with the shitty sounding records many of you are producing. That's why I press this, you can do better. So, tried that in YOUR MCI yet?

[Rod Gervais]

Seamus,

If you could walk away from the concept of modular design - I would have to suggest you give serious consideration to the new Toft boards - pretty hard gear to beat in the price range.

Rod

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Not as tired as I am with the shitty sounding records many of you are producing. That's why I press this, you can do better. So, tried that in YOUR MCI yet?

Did you hear that?





I thought I heard a noise from the Machine Room!?









Sounded...


Sounded...












Sounded like some kinda busted Hi-Speed Video Op-amp chirping away in inky blackness.











Can't mod everything.


SM.