Microphone upgrade for classical guitar

[Alexandru Marian]

Hello everybody, my first post here (although a constant lurker)...

I am a classical guitar builder, and looking for a high quality upgrade for recording samples at home (and the occasional concert recordings).

Currently I use an EMU 0404 (I think amazing value for money) and a pair of Rode NT5 (decent but a bit bright and harsh)

I tested a pair of KM184s and these sounded warmer and smoother, but I am willing to spend more.

I know most people prefer stereo, but I kind of feel one single can sound a bit more natural, in a way. Also thinking a high quality mic should be better than 2 so-and-so. And I could buy a second later (and a fancy pre as well)

I'm looking for something musical and colored rather than neutral, as I imagine this might beauty-up my recording room (even if we are talking cardiods). It is 50sqm, doesn't sound bad but of course not fabulous either.

I am thinking about Schoeps MK 4 or MK 22 (any opinion on the differences?) or maybe a DPA 4011. Other ideas? (preferably available at Thomann).

It also needs to do well from some distance, say 70cm-1m, as I really dislike the sound of close-miked classical guitar.

Sorry of this has been discussed to death before. I did the usual searches but I was hoping for some fresh opinions.

Thanks!

[Stravinsky]

your idea of one single source mic for this purpose is a good one-

[mcgruff]

Unless you get in real close, your "not that bad" room is going to have a much bigger influence than the mic. There's no excuse for not sticking up a few broadband absorbers to kill whatever bad things are going on. For example... (Note: standing waves can make the tests sound different in different parts of the room so try a few listening positions).

[tribedescribe]

Have you thought about upgrading your preamps or converters. If you get a great mic and do not upgrade your preamp/interface, you will not be getting the most out of that mic! Mic's are only one part of the chain.

I also play classical guitar and I think s.d. condenser mic's will do well. From a engineering stand point I would rather have two very good mic's then one great one for solo classical guitar. This gives you much more options for stereo micing techniques I own a pair of km184 and they sound great on classical. Through my neve portico they are even more magical. I would think for classical guitar the room sound is very important, often micing at quite a distance.

About ten years ago I was in the studio recording some classical guitar for a jazz tune. A well respected engineer we had was fussing over the sound. Finally he stopped everything and reached for a new mic and instantly the classical guitar came to life. I wish I could remember what that mic was!!!! I do remember it had a high end lift that gave the instrument lot of air.

[TurboJets]

FWIW I agree an upgrade in preamps is necessary. Then see if you still don't like the N5's because they will take on a new character and charm.

Also consider a few tricks like adding a room mic smashed to hell by a compressor...hi ratio...lots of makeup gain...hyped.

A nice reverb will breath air and life into the track.

A hardwood floor is nice to add reflective room qualities to the capture. Even if you just put a few sheets of plywood under you.

The emu pre's are going to always color things harsh, cold, and leaning toward brittle in the hi's.

[Alexandru Marian]

Thanks everyone.

My living is OK in having a pleasant enough sound both for playing and listening but it is not like a good hall or church
It already has hardwood floors and the broadband absorbers sounds like a fun DIY for this summer.

While searching I found two guitar comparison between 3 Schoeps capsules and a KM184, and in another, 3 Schoeps vs. 3 Gefells. With my cheap AKGs, I liked the KM184 and the Gefell M950 just as well as the Schoeps if not even more.

So I could start with one KM184 and a better pre such as a Grace M101 or even a JDK.
The bad part here is that the pres of my EMU can't be 100% bypassed it seems. It uses a combo XLR/Jack input. More money for a new interface?

[Gamelan]

How about a KM84. A little warmer than the 184.

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

How about a KM84. A little warmer than the 184.

A little warmer yes, and noisier too. Whenever folks recommend the KM84 over the KM184, they usually omit that it has a slightly higher noise floor.

[Alexandru Marian]

Noise is not welcome. The samples are usually slow, spaced, musical sections that need to showcase (and why not, flatter) the tone of the guitar.

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by Alexandru Marian

Noise is not welcome.

Sorry to confuse and mislead.

The KM84 has low noise. It's a very very good microphone. Most gearslutz seem to prefer it over the KM184. I was just making a very minor nitpick that the KM84 has slightly more noise than the KM184 (hence the smiley face.)

When Neuman "improved" the KM84 to the KM184, they redesigned using a transformerless circuit which increased SPL capabilities (slightly) and lowered the noise floor (slightly). However, some folks felt that these "improvements" were outweighed by the loss of "warmth", "smoothness" or whatever you want to call it. It's up to you to decide which of the tradeoffs are more important.

I have the Schoeps, DPA, Josephson, and KM184. The KM184 works great for classical nylon. The KM84 work well too but you have to hunt for a used one with no warranty.

[tribedescribe]

You would get your best bang for your buck if you upgrade your interface with one that has very nice preamps. The usb Rme Babyface would be a perfect interface for you. Its $750 and has two very good quality preamps that are on par with the grace pres. It would be a big step up from your current interface and pre's. I would get the babyface for $750 new and a used km184 for $500. I got my pair of km184's for $1000 used.


You might also want to check out the Earthworks sr30. Although its pretty neutral with zero character.