DRUMKIT FROM HELL - How do you guys process the raw samples? advice needed please

[Rockman]

Hi guys,

Well, here's the thing. At first, I started out by buying the multi-format CD (DFH).. the one that is an orange looking, 2-CD package, containing about 1,000 Wav files, in multiple formats(Giga, Battery, HALion, etc). I have a Gigastudio, so those are the samples I was going to use.

Before loading up the samples, the first thing I did was to listen to the very few audio samples on that CD. The CD has a few audio loops... but also an even fewer number of single hits. And those single hits sounded pretty good! (processed already). But when I finally loaded up the actual Giga samples (1,000 or so) into my Gigastudio... the samples were totally raw and un-processed. After doing a lot of research online, I found out that this was normal... that the samples were unprocessed on purpose... (which is fine).

However, my goal is to get those samples sounding as big and as punchy as those few audio samples on that disc... and to save them like that. I'd rather give up a little bit of flexibility (in regard to having unprocessed sounds to tweak for each and every song)... in order to have big, punchy drum sounds ready to go. (Most of what I do is Pop/Rock). One of the main reasons for wanting to do things this way is that I sequence everything on an MPC3000. I like to load in the drum samples into the MPC3000 and just go... and of course, I'll do some final tweaking later on in Pro Tools (parallel compression, etc).

Since then, I also bought Drumkit From Hell Superior (85,000 individual samples). Somehow, I thought I would have better luck... but I'm still stuck in that respect. The samples need major processing!

So.. to get to the point. Using the gear that I have (which I will list below)... do you guys think I can get the results I'm after? (i.e. to get the raw drums to sound as good as the few audio samples on the DFH multi-format CD)? By the way, does anybody here actually own the DFH multi-format CD? I guess you'd have to hear the samples to know what I'm talking about.

In regard to what kind of drum sound I'm after... think Mickey Curry (Bryan Adams)... or even Phil Rudd (AC/DC). A good example would be Bryan Adam's latest CD (called "Room Service"), mixed by Bob Clearmountain.

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Ok.. Here's what I have to work with (I'm only listing the relevant stuff for this task):

Sequencer: MPC3000

Pro Tools Mix Plus 24 bit, 5.1 (w/ apogee converters)

1 Pair of Brent Averill Neve 1084 mic pre/EQ

1 Distressor EL8-X

Lexicon 300 reverb

Plug-ins: Waves Rennaissance, Fairchild, 1176, LA-2A

1 separate dedicated PC computer (with Cubase SE loaded on it - I run DFHS as a VST instrument on Cubase) - Computer specs: Pentium III, 1.5 GB Ram, more than enough hard drive space

Note: The reason I don't run DFHS on my other computer (Mac G4) on which I run Pro Tools, is because my G4 is an older computer, with less power, and still running on OS9. Therefore, I loaded DFHS on the other computer (PC)... which actually is also barely powerful enough for DFHS. I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

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There you go guys. Thanks for reading this far. I'd appreciate any advice.

[allencollins]

It sounds like you like the Mutt Lange drum sound???

I use DKFH from time to time too. I love it. Some of the samples are a little whimpy
but you can fix them with the right limiter, verb and tuning.

As far as the AC/DC drum sound at least the HTH and BIB.... It is 'limited' as opposed to being compressed.

I run the entire dkfh to a group in nuendo and limit the hell out of it and add little room verb and it's Huuuuuuuuuuge.
Also to make the drums cut through and sit properly in the mix you need to tune the DKFH to the song. I use LM4
so it's simple.

[allencollins]

oops

[Rockman]

Thanks for the tip. Yea, I'm a huge Mutt Lange fan... Although actually, he didn't produce the last Adams album. But then again, by now, Bryan Adams, Bob Clearmountain and Mutt Lange are all part of an amazing team... regardless of what projects they work on.

Thanks for your input... anyone else ?

[Curve Dominant]

Once you get the samples loaded up in your mix, just pretend it's a real drummer playing a kit, and do all the things you'd normally do to get a drumkit sounding good in a mix.

Like:

EQ the low-end garbage out of the snare and cymbles, so the kick pokes through louder.

Blend two different snare samples to emulate a top-bottom mic configuration.

Maybe dump a little 80Hz off the kick, or boost around 2.5KHz, so it's more of a DZUMPF than a BUMFF.

Parallel-compress the drum mix.

F&ck with it until it's slammin'.

[SRS]

Or use a real drummer with real acousic drums...

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by SRS

Or use a real drummer with real acousic drums...

Which is actually a very good idea, and there's lots of good sample loop libraries out there of real drummers playing beats on acoustic kits, recorded through choice analog gear. Brutal Beats, Monster Beats, et al.

In PT, you can slice the beat loop on the grid, and re-fashion it to the groove of your track.

These loops are REALLY TRULY handy for one thing: Hi-hat cymble realism and ambience, which is the hardest thing (if not impossible) to achieve using individual hits.

Then, drop your favorite kick and snare samples in on the loop, to give it the "oomph."

I'll post up a few examples if I have time.

[Rockman]

Thanks for the tips guys. Actually, I forgot to mention... I already use a real (live) hi-hat. That's the only thing that's real in my drum sounds. It seems to make a big difference in the realism.

But for the other drums... what I'm particulary interested in... is getting great, processed samples of snares and toms (both left and right hand hits... along with some flams, rolls, etc). Ideally, I'd like to get those samples (but already processed, and sounding very much like the audio samples on that multi-format DFH CD.

I also have Stylus RMX, with the expansion CDs (backbeat and burning grooves), which have some great loops...

Maybe I'll try slicing up some of those loops in PT, like you suggested... hmm.

[Rossman]

Originally Posted by SRS

Or use a real drummer with real acousic drums...

"ditto"

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Maybe I'll try slicing up some of those loops in PT, like you suggested... hmm.

Here's how I do it, using a song that's currently in progress as an example.

I'll put up these examples as four seperate posts:
Post 1: The dry loop sample with no added hits or processing
Post 2: The same loop, but with individual kick & snare sample hits added
Post 3: All that, but with parallel compression mixed in
Post 4: What the entire mix sounds like with the beat, electric guitars & bass

So this is Post 1. The following example MP3 is the dry loop from Brutal Beats, (after I sliced it to fit the groove of the song):

[Curve Dominant]

Post 2:

Here is the same section of the beat, but I've dropped individual snare and kick sample hits on top of the hits in the loop. (I've also placed cymble crashes in select places.) The kick sample is a Ludwig. The snare sample is actually 2 different Noble & Cooly snare hits, used both layered together, and seperate as ghost hits.

[Curve Dominant]

Post 3:

Now here is the beat from Post 2, but with parallel compression added. (WARNING: This MP3 is going to be MUCH LOUDER than the previous 2)...

[zboy2854]

I second the idea that you just need to mix them like you would live drums. What I do is set the mic bleed in DFHS so that there is minimal cymbal and hat leakage into the close miked drums, and most importantly, I bring the level of the cymbals and hat in the room/ambient mics waaaay down, so when I crush the crap out of the room tracks with Distressors I get lots of room tone and ambience out of the drums without all the cymbal wash. For the rest of the close miked drums, it's just a matter of the usual EQ and compression techniques.

[Curve Dominant]

Post 4:

And finally, here's what the beat in Post 3 sounds like in context with the electric bass & guitars. This mix is still in progress (we haven't tracked Naeemah's vocals yet), so everything's rather dry, but you can get an idea. There is, however, compression (BF 1176) and limiting (Maxim) on the mixbus.

[Rossman]

I do a lot of Hip Hop and have tracked a lot of drum machines, even though an MPC3000 is great it still sounds like a machine, even if your really know it well. It's just hard to get a real feel especialy fills. I just remembered a live drum sample/loops catalog that a friend had. They were in PT sessions at different tempos and feels. They were also tracked well. Or, you could just hire a good drummer and make your own.

[Methlab]

I use BFD, but treat it like a kit. EQ, compress, use the SSL talkback on the OHs and then parallel comp.

The key to having feel is to play the kit with quantize off and just have good timing (obviously make sure your latency is taken care of). ill probably have an example of the way i do it in a few days and ill post it up.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by SRS

Or use a real drummer with real acousic drums...

ahh, I thnk these things are nice because not everyone has access to a studio and a drummer for everything. Weird that that would be your response to the guy's question. Tools are tools. WTF?

[Ruudman]

Any opinions on the hats'n cymbals in C&V?

I only got Superior, thinking of upgrading.


ruudman

[octatonic]

I have DFH and C&V- the problem with both of them is the lack of realistic overheads signal.
If you have never recorded a live kit I can see how you can think it is great, but really the overheads really don't sound like a real kit (because it isn't one) and ultimately I feel like I am always trying to fix that.

I use DFH and C&V to augment performances of real drummers - for this it is great.


I often re-process the kick, snare, hats and toms through my outboard and anything I can borrow for the job.
I really like the blackface preset in MCDSP's compressor bank- it kicks.
Analog Channel 1 works great on everything.

JR

[Rockman]

Thanks for all the input guys. Curve, thanks for sharing those mp3 examples. They sound great! Maybe I should consider starting off with a good loop (say from Stylus RMX-Backbeat or Burning Grooves expansion)... and build on top of that, like you did. I normally tend to start off with no loop at all, and just program the drums individually. But I like your way of doing things... Very cool.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

I have DFH and C&V- the problem with both of them is the lack of realistic overheads signal.
If you have never recorded a live kit I can see how you can think it is great, but really the overheads really don't sound like a real kit (because it isn't one) and ultimately I feel like I am always trying to fix that.

That's where parallel compression really helps. It brings out and drastically amplifies even the slightest room ambience of any sample.

If you listen to the difference between my examples in post #'s 2 and 3 (before and after parallel compresssion), it sounds like a pair of overhead mics were added to the mix in the example in post 3.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by max cooper

I thnk these things are nice because not everyone has access to a studio and a drummer for everything.

Or you may have all that, but maybe you want to write and arrange the beats and drums, and establish an overall groove for the song, first. Then bring a drummer in to learn what you came up with, or at least use it as a reference.

Personally, I just get a big f&cking kick out of writing and programming beats. Sometimes I go OCD until 5 in the a.m. tweaking the samples and the mixes.

[pabloman]

Originally Posted by Ruudman

Any opinions on the hats'n cymbals in C&V?

I only got Superior, thinking of upgrading.


ruudman

Just do it... I've got both, and I tend to use BFD the most. You can also import DKFH into BFD. BFD sounds very clean, and it sounds amazing when treat it like a real drumkit in multi-channel mode.

(I can give you a demo in Oslo.)

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

I have DFH and C&V- the problem with both of them is the lack of realistic overheads signal.
If you have never recorded a live kit I can see how you can think it is great, but really the overheads really don't sound like a real kit (because it isn't one) and ultimately I feel like I am always trying to fix that.

Hmm, I'm surprised at that comment.
The overheads were recorded exactly like a regular album session. They were painstakingly positioned to get the best out of the sound. There is bleed into the overheads from snare, toms and room etc.
I have plenty of tracking experience on acoustic kit and when I ran one of my midi-files with the C&V sounds, it sounded exactly like me playing in a room.
Of course, if you are used to different mic positions for overheads, you might not necessarily like the position chosen for the C&V sessions. The only other factor I can think of is the triggering of multiple samples (snare, hats, cymbals etc), recorded at different moments, is slightly un-natural. Maybe you are hearing that in the overheads...........although I don't. I think it's one of the amazing thing about C&V.
Anyway, I think C&V is a big step up from the previous DFH products. Unfortunately it's designed to be an alternative to ambient rock sounds. So it's not going to have that Power Station, Clearmountain vibe.
It's not completely dry mind you. The sounds are processed to a minor degree (which includes vintage EMI eq and compressed ambience) and sound pretty useable out of the box IMO. Moreso than Superior.
The latest DFH product is EZdrummer. Recorded by Neil Dorfsman (someone very much in the tradition of Clearmountain IMO). It's much more geared to that big American sound.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

Post 3:

Now here is the beat from Post 2, but with parallel compression added. (WARNING: This MP3 is going to be MUCH LOUDER than the previous 2)...

I hope you don't mind but I fixed your drum loop
ran it through my helios' pre and brought up in your face a bit
Gave it a bonzo feel

the snare sound is weak in the original If I had the individual tracks I could fix it


www.setvar.com\underdog_loop_w_Bonzo.wav

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by allencollins

I hope you don't mind but I fixed your drum loop
ran it through my helios' pre and brought up in your face a bit
Gave it a bonzo feel

the snare sound is weak in the original If I had the individual tracks I could fix it


www.setvar.com\underdog_loop_w_Bonzo.wav

Allen,

First off, your .wav didn't boot up on my browser, so I didn't get to hear your new "bonzo" version of my beat.

Second, don't knock yourself out. This thread is about how to use samples, not about how everyone's mixing of them should ultimately sound.

That beat I posted is for a very modern female urban electric soul artist, demographic 18-30 y/o's. I don't expect these mixes to impress a 40-something gearslut. In fact, they damn well better not!

Thanks anyway, and best regards.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

Allen,

First off, your .wav didn't boot up on my browser, so I didn't get to hear your new "bonzo" version of my beat.

Second, don't knock yourself out. This thread is about how to use samples, not about how everyone's mixing of them should ultimately sound.

That beat I posted is for a very modern female urban electric soul artist, demographic 18-30 y/o's. I don't expect these mixes to impress a 40-something gearslut. In fact, they damn well better not!

Thanks anyway, and best regards.

I'm just playing around, he said he wanted an ac/dc style drum sound so I figured I'd try and help. no biggie

anyway I really like the guitar sounds on your 'full' mix. What did you use????
what pres/guitar amp etc...
thx

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by allencollins

I'm just playing around, he said he wanted an ac/dc style drum sound so I figured I'd try and help. no biggie

And I didn't mean to come off terse. But if you crank up the snare, the kick gets lost, and today's mixes being what they are, you're gonna want that kick in there.

anyway I really like the guitar sounds on your 'full' mix. What did you use????
what pres/guitar amp etc...
thx

Guitar: Fender Telecaster Elite
Amp: Fender Pro Junior w/2 mics, front and back
Pres: Bellari RP220
Compressors: dbx 160X (front mic), 163X (back mic)
Digi001

I also parallel compress the guitar submix with a BF 1176.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

And I didn't mean to come off terse. But if you crank up the snare, the kick gets lost, and today's mixes being what they are, you're gonna want that kick in there.



Guitar: Fender Telecaster Elite
Amp: Fender Pro Junior w/2 mics, front and back
Pres: Bellari RP220
Compressors: dbx 160X (front mic), 163X (back mic)
Digi001

I also parallel compress the guitar submix with a BF 1176.

no worries. Sounds great. Really nice gtr sound. The Fender Pro has a
master volume? or did you use a overdrive pedal??? again really nice
bluezy sound. In your face but yet spacial

thx

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Sounds great. Really nice gtr sound. The Fender Pro has a
master volume? or did you use a overdrive pedal???

The Fender Pro Junior has all of 2 knobs: 1 volume, 1 tone. We used a Tech 21 SansAmp to get saturation from the amp.

again really nice bluezy sound. In your face but yet spacial

Thanks. It helped that we had a really good guitarist on the session...