Recording band together, in an untreated room?

[mr jkn]

Ok,

My dad wants me to record his coverband in a few weeks. They do not want to go in a studio and do a serious demo: the recording is supposed to be for them only, so they can decide what songs they want on their repertoire. It would be cool to give the recording a really ruff "garage-y" edge, they play mostly sixties stuff, and to put two microphones in front of them in their untreated rehearsal room. But, I really want to try out a multichannel recording (8 to be precise), so the questions are as follow:

1. The band will perform together, so the balance between the sound sources should be adjusted correctly from the beginning. But how to mike them up? Setting is drums, two guitar amps, bass and singer into 8 channels. For example, what kinda OH-mikes mikes for the drums?

2. How to place the sources? I know I read about this in a similar thread, but can´t find it. Suppose that the drummer wants the basscabinet by his left or right side, wouldn´t it leak inappropriate into the oh-mikes?

3. I have some minor experiences from live mixing on small venues, where the key to non-leakage is close miking? Should I approach it this way, and implement reverb later in the mix?

4. The most important question: What gear to use?
I´m about to invest in some recording stuff on my own, because many small bands have the same request as my dad´s band. My budget is minor (as always). Should I go the laptop (firewire-interface) route or Alesis-style harddrive recording style?

Well, if you guys have any input I would really appreciate it. Have a nice day by the way.

[Led]

I would lay it down 8 track as - kick, drum overhead, bass, guitar, guitar, keys, bvocs, lead vocs. Put a mic in the kick, one over the kit pointing at the snare, run line outs from the amp heads or use dynamic mics on the speakers, like 57's and 58's, and mics for the vocals. If you can submix a few mics for bvox even better.

It sounds like you might be best to keep it simple rather than getting into a big multi miking setup that will give you all sorts of phase and spill issues and maybe lead to a discouraging result. You can always get fancier as you do more and you always have your dad's band as free talent.

As far as interfaces, the firewire will be an advantage as some have pres and phantom power. The RME ones are quite good in that range. I don't think the hard disk recorders have pres and I don't think they'd be as easy to upgrade or edit on. Although radar is good, but expensive compared to a firewire setup.
Cheers

[mr jkn]

Great input, Led! Thanks.
If one mikes the drumkit that way, the leakage from the bass wouldn´t mess with the drums´ stereo image because there aint any! Cool, maybe I go down that route..

Maybe I can submix! My dad just told me the have a desk in their room - praying it aint b-ringer

What do you guys think of the Presonus FW-range - do you think they have their Firestudio out in june? Well, Rme seems to be the most reasonably alternativ right now..

Originally Posted by Led

I would lay it down 8 track as - kick, drum overhead, bass, guitar, guitar, keys, bvocs, lead vocs. Put a mic in the kick, one over the kit pointing at the snare, run line outs from the amp heads, and mics for the vocals. If you can submix a few mics for bvox even better.
As far as interfaces, the firewire will be an advantage as some have pres and phantom power. The RME ones are quite good in that range. I don't think the hard disk recorders have pres and I don't think they'd be as easy to upgrade.
Although radar is good, but expensive compared to a firewire setup.

[Fletcher]

Without hearing the room or seeing [hearing?] the band it's all conjecture... that said; I'd probalby have them setup the way they normally setup, and close mic most of the instruments to minimize bleed.

You'll be surprised how little "room" some of the drum mics will hear. I would probably recommend a close mic on kik and snare to give them some extra snap with a mono overhead [mixed together... maybe include the H/H in that setup depending on how important the hat is to their overall sound].

From there, Bass DI; guitars close mic'd, keyboards [if any] via DI and vocals overdubbed you should be able to get a fairly good representation of what the band actually sounds like [+/- 3db].

A big part of your drum sound will be the tuning of the drum kit... so tell Dad's drummer friend to go out and buy himself a new set of heads [top and bottom for the toms, new snare strainer(s) and bottom heads for the snare... new beater and outside heads for the kik drum!!]... then have him tune them the day before you start, and check the tuning early and often during the production process.

Guitar players should have the intonation done on their instruments... fret job(s) if necessary... bass player should have a set of strings that achieve the sound he wants [though I'd still recommend "flat wounds" it will ultimately be the player's choice].

Once they sound good in their space then your job will get a hell of a lot easier... funny how that works.

Best of luck with it!!!

[mr jkn]

Great suggestions Fletcher. I´m more and more convinced that monomixing the drums is the way to go. Bass DI also seems adequate - minimizing the mikes! Regarding the instruments, I´m pretty good at setting up guitars - will definitely check them out before recording. Drums will be checked also. Well I guess, if it sounds good at the source, it will sound good in the daw. Thank´s for adding some points to my checklist, Fletcher.

[Jules]

Duvets (eiderdowns, heavy balnkets) draped over chairs that are scattered around the room can help 'soak up' unwanted clatter..

See how it sounds first then take action if required..

[Led]

Yeah, we call them Doona's in Oz.

[espasonico]

With this kind of recordings ( wich are the ones I like ) I think it´s nicer to record without headphones ( for the musicians ) if you want to capture the real vibe so using a DI for bass if you are not using an amp it´s gonna force you to use some kind of monitoring.

If the room it´s big enough, you can place the amps a little bit far of the drums and don´t worry to much about the spill, you can use the spill to make it sound "live".

I think the key it´s to capture the performance. I have made some recordings with everybody in the same room ( we have booths but didn´t use them ) and a BIG Genelec for monitoring the live vocal ( dynamic mic ) not facing the OH mics and the spill you get it´s not a problem.

I´m not a big fan of OH in the sense of OH+BD=drum sound, if the drummer and the room are not that good. With 8 inputs maybe I woulg use a BD, SN and 2 mics but not as OH and more like Cymbals+Toms. Then 1 mic for each of the other instruments.

[meteor]

Lots of good suggestions here... let me add a small one. If you can, postition and tilt each of the amps so they are pointed straight at the corresponding players ears but away from the drums. If the guitar amps/cabs are open back you can use a pillow to dampen the back side. You will still get bleed, but it will be much more manageable and the players will be able to hear themselves and maybe even turn down a bit. Also, if the bass amp is just too much for the room, turn it down a bit and point it straight at the back of the bassists legs. Then set him up with a pair of non-isolating headphones with mostly bass in them. The combo of a little feel from the amp, clarity from the phones, and still hearing the room is usually a good compromise for the bass guitar side of things.

Maybe you can tell that the performance vibe and basic tones of a live recording are paramount to my approach. It doesn't always work out, but when it does it's pretty rewarding.

cheers,

[mr jkn]

Invaluable tips, guys! I had the no-headphones idea from the beginning and I´m sure it will work out. I think I will feed the recording interface directly from the Ampeg´s di out - should sound fine. I will try the approach with headphones on the bassist if his combo rumbles too much in that room. Hopefully they have alot of sofas and stuff that clears things up a bit. Will also try out to face the guitarists´ amps directly at them too. Note to self: Go to IKEA and buy duvets. This is fun!

Wow, suddenly I really look forward to this.

[u b k]

the only thing i can add, or re-stress if it's already been mentioned and i missed it, is that there may come a point or two in the process when your needs or desires conflict with a player(s). in those moments, remember that vibe is paramount, and that their performances will be the largest factor by far in how enjoyable the recording is to listen to. if you have to sacrifice a little sonics to make a person more comfortable, do it... whether it be moving the bass cab closer to the drummer, or using the singer's favorite mic, whatever, do it.

if you help them to create a moment in time, the recording will hold that memory, giving them something they'll cherish for years.


gregoire
del ubik

[ozraves]

The main thing... And, I do mean the main thing is to listen to your room the day before. Walk around and clap your hands and listen. You're looking for a good spot to place the drums.

I'd close mic the snare. I'd do Fletcher's three mic technique for the rest of the kit.

I'd put the guitar amps on either side of the kit.

I'd DI the bass. Just be thankful you've not got an acoustic double bass to record.

I'd record the vocals separately from the music.

I did this in a somewhat similar session a couple months ago in a friend's living room. (No budget for the studio I wanted to use.) You can listen to the clips here:

THE STARKWEATHER BOYS

[mr jkn]

Well, guys - I recorded my little brothers band, using almost all of suggestions you wrote. It sounded really awesome in the studio, and the band really got that "vibe" when they were playing live together. The leakage was no major problem, produced some phasiness, but cured with nudging in the daw. Now I can record my dad´s band without feeling lost!

You can hear the result at:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=69729

..please be gentle, I´m merely a poor hobbyist with a passion.

[mr jkn]

Now I have completed the recording of the instruments of my dads coverband - doing the vocals at tuesday. I did as you guys suggested and recorded everything together pointing each amp directly to their ears - I actually placed the bassamp on a 4x12 cab just to make sure the sound carried on elegantly to the bassplayer and the drummer. I also tilted the guitaramps heavily. No headphones were used for monitoring..

The song you hear in the background is picked up by the oh-mike, but I don´t think it will be a problem when it´s overdubbed. The drums were miked with one adk51s as oh, sm57 on snare and a noname mike for kick (I bit dull, I fear). Glorious mono as some of you suggested! Other than that - sm57 and beta58 on guitar and bass was lined through the small ampeg combo. Everything went through a battered old Soundcraft Spirit Studio (24 ch.) - sounded kinda fat, eventually into an equally battered Fostex d108.

Here´s an example of what they recorded, haven´t mixed it properly but you get the idea. These "cats" aren´t that good - but they sure had fun recording it!

Well, thanks to you guys for the tips - invaluable information for me. Gearslutz is the s--t!