Convertors

[John Mayes]

if you were choosing between a 888/io and a apogee AD16 which woudl you choose and why...

[atticus]

Neither. I would rather buy less channels of great conversion then a lot of marginal channels of conversion.

[John Mayes]

I did not think the Apogee was "marginal"..interesting you say it is... can you reccomend something? Although I assume it would be one of your converters....I was not too hot on the 888/io as IO was skeptical about the quality, but I had confidence in the AD16 as I've heard it a few times and it sounded good (although I nothing to a/b it against. I Also my spring for a AD8000..well a couple of them actually...

[Teacher]

get 2 units of benchmarks 8 in AD..and 8 dac-1's....

just saving you the typing atticus

[TML]

Dave-
Spoke you 3 weeks back...got a DAC-1. It's great! Does Benchmark have a 8 channel A/D yet. I think the Spider is cool but I really don't need 8 pre's..word clock etc...Thanks
TIm

[Teacher]

http://www.mercenary.com/benadeigchan.html

check it out tml

[atticus]

John,

I know that you understand how it is to be a botique company creating products that are your passion but you're still forced to compete with companies who have more marketing dollars to spend. When I say marginal I don't mean bad, but to me it is like comparing a Tayor 310, which is a great guitar but it obviously not made out of the absolute finest materials and has more automated production involved, to one of your guitars, which obviously has more work that goes into it. My theory is that a guitar player might do better to invest in one of your guitars rather then buy two or three lesser ones. I don't care what you're buying, whether it be mic pres, mics, whatever, it is better to buy better quality, and I honestly feel that there are better quality converters then what you mentioned in the same price range. Yes our converters are very good and I am justifiably proud of them, and it's hard to wrong with our stuff. I hope that this was somewhat helpful. Thanks.

[John Mayes]

I'm all for being proud of your work..heck I am. I was not menaing anyhting by it and I hope you did not take it that way. If your analogy is accurate then the AD8000, AD 16 (being the Taylor 310) comapred to your converters, or a comparable one, (what in your eyes is comparable or is a top notch converter) makes your converter head and shoulders above the others as I consider my Guitars, of course I'm biased here, as well as other guitars made by respected Luthiers Much much better than a Taylor guitar..not that they are bad by any means..in fact they are nice guitars, but there is so much better out there in my eyes. So... in your opnion, are your converters really ,much much better than the competition? I'm sure your gonna be biased but that is ok..I'm asking for the biased opnion. Thanks for the time and reply I appreciate it.

Originally posted by atticus
... I honestly feel that there are better quality converters then what you mentioned in the same price range...

I'd be interested to know which ones these are in the price range for a 8-16 AD converter. I'm sure everyone else can benifit from your expertise as well!

[kittonian]

It's quite interesting to hear these statements being made. Has anyone actually done a listening test? I can honestly say that I have and every single time that all converters are calibrated to the exact same specs, Apogee is chosen time and again.

Additionally with the new Rosetta 800 the sound is dramatically better. Above and beyond that, with the new Big Ben master clock the spatial imaging and ultra low jitter gives every digital signal an unprecendented sound that, as Apogee puts it, truly "sounds amazing".

I'd be hard pressed to say that for a company that will show up every single time a listening test is requested and is willing to talk specs at any point you ask, you'd be able to find a company with the not only the same incredible sound quality that Apogee produces with each of their unbelievable products and/or Apogee's fabulous customer service practices, but that will also produce products at price margins that don't exceed most realistic studio owners (take the DB Tech products that are well into the $10k+ range).

For me, and I can only speak for me on this or any issue that I deal with, I tested a bunch of different manufacturers before deciding which converters were going into AudioLot Studios and after an exhausting testing and listening period I chose Apogee and have never looked back. My recommendation is listen for yourself and don't just trust other people's opinions. Apogee is usually the clear winner when put to the challenge and there is a reason they have set the standard by which many other companies compete.

I can't say enough good things about Apogee and I apologize for ranting a bit here, but, it is with great hesitation when I choose to pickup a product line and represent it with the AudioLot name and reputation behind it (especially on an exclusive basis). I did just that with Apogee and have been proud to not only use their products but help other studios implement the Apogee product line time and again.

[logichead]

I have to say I have noticed an anti-Apogee bias on this forum. I've only been reading and posting for a brief time and have seen several references - and nearly all of them appear to come from folks who benefit from the mudslinging, such as David, from Benchmark.

It's easy to say words like "marginal" - much easier than stating clear reasons why someone might prefer one product over another. Clearly, one reason David prefers Benchmark is because he works for them. I wonder what his opinion would be if he worked for Apogee? Don't laugh, David - pro audio is a small world.

Sonic differences in good converters are much smaller than differences in good monitors, microphones, mic-pre's and compressors, and yet some (not you, David) are very comfortable comparing 2 high quality converters and dismissing one as "crap".

John, regarding your initial question - I would certainly choose the AD16 over the 888io. Bear in mind it is only ad. For da you would need a DA16. You could also wait a week or so and get 1 or 2 8 channel Rosetta 800's, which have both ad and da. If you go for an 8000, I strongly suggest a Big Ben (master clock) which makes the 8000 sound much better - after all, the 8000 is an 8 year old design. Remember that the 8000's have a fan, while all the other pieces are silent.

My suggestion is the Rosetta or the AD16-DA16's.

Let the buyer beware. Use your own ears and come to your own opinion - otherwise you truly will be buying "crap".

Best....H

[atticus]

I was and have been careful to say that our competitors were not bad, as sound is truly subjective. I also never said that ours were the absolute best either. I feel that my analogy is right on in comparing a Taylor 310 to one of Mr. Mayes' guitars as even a low end Taylor is a pretty good guitar. If you love another type of converter then good for you and you can definitely make great music. I have no bias against another manufacturer and I would like to see a post where I have said a bad thing about a competitor. I absolutely do not engourage mud slinging at all. The spirit behind my original post was that I felt that Mr. Mayes money was better spent elsewhere, but I also did not say that he should call me and buy a Benchmark box either. I just honestly feel that there a bunch of better converters out there then the two he listed and I made it known. I have never encouraged any mudslinging towards any competitor, and if you don't believe me do a search. Maybe I was wrong in using the word marginal, but it is my honest opinion and I don't make any apoligies for having that opinion or for working for a company whose products I am extremely proud of. We also make mic preamps, but I have posted several times about the merits of other manufacturers pres. In doing my job I have the unique position of having been exposed to a lot of high end gear so I have heard how great exceptional gear can sound when used by great engineers. The answer to the question was just my opinion, not a hard fact, and I hope that it can be taken as such. Best of luck with your search.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by kittonian
It's quite interesting to hear these statements being made. Has anyone actually done a listening test? I can honestly say that I have and every single time that all converters are calibrated to the exact same specs, Apogee is chosen time and again.

In comparison to what? RME? Swissonic? MOTU?

Additionally with the new Rosetta 800 the sound is dramatically better.

Then why aren't you running one in your studio?

Above and beyond that, with the new Big Ben master clock the spatial imaging and ultra low jitter gives every digital signal an unprecendented sound that, as Apogee puts it, truly "sounds amazing".

Thank you for reguritating Apogee's marketing... that's just great. We're in the midst of doing a 'shootout' between several clocks. The most interesting thing we've found so far is that they all change not only the 'top and bottom' of the audio but also the arrangement of the 'midrange'.

It's been a fascinating set of tests so far... there have been no clear "winners" as yet though there have been a couple of clear [or should I say 'not so clear'] losers.

I'd be hard pressed to say that for a company that will show up every single time a listening test is requested and is willing to talk specs at any point you ask, you'd be able to find a company with the not only the same incredible sound quality that Apogee produces with each of their unbelievable products and/or Apogee's fabulous customer service practices, but that will also produce products at price margins that don't exceed most realistic studio owners (take the DB Tech products that are well into the $10k+ range).

Gee... that's what I want... a company that's willing to 'talk specs' at any point I ask... not. I dunno... maybe I just haven't been an AE long enough... but to this point I've never recorded a 'specification'.

BTW... "DB Tech" no longer exists by that name. There is a speaker company in Europe called 'DB Technologies' that wanted to enter the US/N. American market... so they bought the name. The company is now called "Lavry Engineering'... and golly, they have a 2 channel A/D-D/A for $2,500!!

Now I realize that Mercenary is severely overpriced in comparison to your shop [go figure... we have 'overhead'... like we actually stock shit... we're total ****ing morons], but the PSX-100 SE is almost $1,000 more expensive than the 2 channel Lavry 4496... and IMNTLBFHO, the PSX-100 SE couldn't lick the sweat off the balls of the Lavry 4496 in terms of tone, spacial content, depth of field, etc., etc., etc.

For me, and I can only speak for me on this or any issue that I deal with, I tested a bunch of different manufacturers before deciding which converters were going into AudioLot Studios and after an exhausting testing and listening period I chose Apogee and have never looked back.

Now there's a glowing endorsement!! I hope upon hope that one day I could actually get a gig with a big enough budget so I too could get to work at AudioLot studios... you're so damn lucky.

My recommendation is listen for yourself and don't just trust other people's opinions.

Possibly the first truly intelligent thing you've ever typed on a forum. Congratulations!!

Apogee is usually the clear winner when put to the challenge and there is a reason they have set the standard by which many other companies compete.

Ya know... Apogee is indeed good stuff... and best part is, they're actually getting better. However, it's not necessarily the "best" stuff... I haven't found it to be better than a whole lot of stuff that plays in top end... but I have found it to bury the pedestrian crap that so many people buy because it's inexpensive...

I can't say enough good things about Apogee and I apologize for ranting a bit here, but, it is with great hesitation when I choose to pickup a product line and represent it with the AudioLot name and reputation behind it (especially on an exclusive basis). I did just that with Apogee and have been proud to not only use their products but help other studios implement the Apogee product line time and again.

Oh spare me... it was the only line of real converters you could get...

[kittonian]

You know Fletcher, your attitude got you thrown out of dealing Neumann and Sennheiser products (which btw, I picked up the entire line they took away from you - and to post a picture of Hitler on your site? shame on you). That should've told you that perhaps when an entire manufacturer pulls their line from allowing you to carry it maybe it's time to take a better look in the mirror.

I'm sorry you are so upset that you weren't a smart enough businessman to figure out how to sell great products at low prices. I'm also sorry that you have so much overhead. It sucks when you are stuck in that situation but at the end of the day you should blame yourself and not try to belittle your competition in the public eye.

Also, if I may, here's a tip. You might not want to make any other manufacturers that you deal mad at you. Eventually you might be down to selling only a few products and then how would you pay the bills for all that overhead you have?

Look, you sell some great stuff, and to be honest with you I used your edition of the drawmer (the 1969) on the last album I just mixed (they had a couple of them in fact at the studio in St. Louis where I was working). I think you really need to grow up a little and realize that you are not the only fish in the pond. You do some stuff great and we do some stuff great. Hell, there are a ton of dealers out there that do some stuff great. I believe in AudioLot (and of course I should) and will always tell customers to listen for themselves and not just take what I say as the end all be all solution. Everyone is free to purchase from whomever they choose. If we have the lowest price great. If not, that's cool too.

Show that kindergarten teacher she was out of line when sending home the report card that said "you don't play well with others".

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by kittonian
You know Fletcher, your attitude got you thrown out of dealing Neumann and Sennheiser products (which btw, I picked up the entire line they took away from you - and to post a picture of Hitler on your site? shame on you). That should've told you that perhaps when an entire manufacturer pulls their line from allowing you to carry it maybe it's time to take a better look in the mirror.

I'm sorry you are so upset that you weren't a smart enough businessman to figure out how to sell great products at low prices. I'm also sorry that you have so much overhead. It sucks when you are stuck in that situation but at the end of the day you should blame yourself and not try to belittle your competition in the public eye.

Also, if I may, here's a tip. You might not want to make any other manufacturers that you deal mad at you. Eventually you might be down to selling only a few products and then how would you pay the bills for all that overhead you have?

Look, you sell some great stuff, and to be honest with you I used your edition of the drawmer (the 1969) on the last album I just mixed (they had a couple of them in fact at the studio in St. Louis where I was working). I think you really need to grow up a little and realize that you are not the only fish in the pond. You do some stuff great and we do some stuff great. Hell, there are a ton of dealers out there that do some stuff great. I believe in AudioLot (and of course I should) and will always tell customers to listen for themselves and not just take what I say as the end all be all solution. Everyone is free to purchase from whomever they choose. If we have the lowest price great. If not, that's cool too.

Show that kindergarten teacher she was out of line when sending home the report card that said "you don't play well with others".

So Josh...do you bring anything of value to the table other than your arrogant attitude? I'll bet you a dollar that you've already lost more customers and potential allies than you can make up with a thousand apologies. Hope you do well with your existing lines. You'll need your low overhead to make anything resembling a living there. You're a smart guy (apparently much smarter than Fletcher) so you shouldn't have any problems.

[BlakeMcKibben]

Hey John, I just posted my AD16 in the buy/sell of this site if you're interested. Hopefully it's an option to the aforementioned outspoken.

[Aearth]

"You know Fletcher, your attitude got you thrown out of dealing Neumann and Sennheiser products (which btw, I picked up the entire line they took away from you - and to post a picture of Hitler on your site? shame on you). That should've told you that perhaps when an entire manufacturer pulls their line from allowing you to carry it maybe it's time to take a better look in the mirror."

I'd say they did Fletch a favour. Just because it has a badge on it like Neumann or Apogee does not mean it's the top of the pile and a must have to die for.

Nick

[BattleAngel]

"I'd say they did Fletch a favour. Just because it has a badge on it like Neumann or Apogee does not mean it's the top of the pile and a must have to die for.

Nick"

Amen. I doubt Fletcher is losing any sleep over it. Mercenary may not have the lowest prices but I went with them for some very top of the top gear because of their reputation and I've never wished I had done otherwise.

I'll tell you this much- AudioLot's frontman isn't making a good impression on me and I'm in the market for some stuff he may be dealing.

[Teacher]

he reminds me of a certain S/w manufacturer(atcually graphics designer) when he speaks to potential clients...

[BattleAngel]

The premier studio in Cleveland Ohio uses a Wackie as it's main board?

Man... anyone want to move to Ohio with me and start a studio? lol

[atticus]

Originally posted by BattleAngel
The premier studio in Cleveland Ohio uses a Wackie as it's main board?

Man... anyone want to move to Ohio with me and start a studio? lol

Dude, I live in Akron, OH. Come on down and we'll set it up! The competition is pretty stiff here though.....

[jobi7]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
So Josh...do you bring anything of value to the table other than your arrogant attitude? I'll bet you a dollar that you've already lost more customers and potential allies than you can make up with a thousand apologies. Hope you do well with your existing lines. You'll need your low overhead to make anything resembling a living there. You're a smart guy (apparently much smarter than Fletcher) so you shouldn't have any problems.

Of course he has something of value. He has a really nice mousepad. http://www.cafeshops.com/stealingheather.2339105

[lucey]

Furman, Waves AND Apogee ... wow.



"Cleveland's premiere recording studio" .... oh lord.

[atticus]

Originally posted by lucey
Furman, Waves AND Apogee ... wow.



"Cleveland's premiere recording studio" .... oh lord.

I'd be willing to bet that Telarc has the best recording setup in Cleveland, but that's just my opinion.

[lucey]

Originally posted by atticus
I'd be willing to bet that Telarc has the best recording setup in Cleveland, but that's just my opinion.

"Best" for what? Not for rock. I'll take my 2" 16 to 1/2" over Telarc any day.

"Best" is so wrong for this industry.






Let's take a pledge ... call it the Gearslutz Oath:






Repeat after me sisters and brothers ...

I promise never again to use the word "best".

I retract all previous uses of the word "best"

[chap]

I've been following this post but have been too busy to respond (even though the singer said go ahead).
As usual, with the subject of converters, there is information and misinformation.
To paint Apogee as a big corporation is simply a lie. They have a 20 person staff and spend most of their budget on R+D which other companies benefit from.
Witness Digi's HD converters trying hard to be AD8000s. Apogee often gets ads in magazines by waiting until the last minute so they can afford it. Again, focusing on R+D.
They are obsessesed with quality and their product bears this out. Big Ben may have jitter but it's the only piece out there that the jitter can't be measured.
People tend to go after the top dog and that's a shame. Why do we need to punish people for doing something great?
In comparison, Benchmark, Mytek and even Prism have been advertising much more than Apogee over the last year. It also means that Benchmark needs a strategy for discrediting Apogee in order to try and grab some of Apogee’s market share, and portraying Apogee as a big company with a big marketing budget is just part of Benchmark’s own marketing plan.
If you're gonna give it, you have to be ready to take some. I'm sure Benchmark is just trying to survive in a funny economy but play fair.
I've heard them all and, sorry, Apogee wins.
peace,
chap

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by chap

To paint Apogee as a big corporation is simply a lie. They have a 20 person staff and spend most of their budget on R+D which other companies benefit from.

According to Apogee they have a 40 person staff. Big corporation compared to microsoft? No. Big corporation compared to Crane Song, Mytek, Benchmark. Yes. Mytek is 2 people.

Witness Digi's HD converters trying hard to be AD8000s. Apogee often gets ads in magazines by waiting until the last minute so they can afford it. Again, focusing on R+D.

Yawn.

People tend to go after the top dog and that's a shame.

If they are top dog, why do they need your help?

Why do we need to punish people for doing something great?

Being a bit paranoid are we?

In comparison, Benchmark, Mytek and even Prism have been advertising much more than Apogee over the last year.

Three companies combined might have advertised more than Apogee. Don't know about Prism, but Benchmark has 1/3 page ads, Mytek does not advertise AT ALL. You're severly misinformed there.

peace

Obviously that's what you want.

[Teacher]

chap, kittonian

Why do you feel people have a vendetta against apogee?

its just one man's(in this case few men) opinion...y worry about them and do you?...it seems a lil fishy the evangelic defense both of you guys come with for apogee...shit even atticus doesn't act like that and he works for benchmark!

[chap]

Nate,
Out you come, guns blazing.
I don't see you fixing other so called mis representations.
Could it be that you don't deal Apogee?
Flame off dude.
You go back to selling gear and I'll go back to using it.
I just called Apogee - it's 20 people. Get your facts straight before you shoot from the hip.
yawn,
chap

Teacher,
My defense was just to correct misconceptions.
I'm all for everyone using whatever they like but this isn't a smash and bash forum. I don't get why Apogee needs to be painted as a big corporation
when they are not. No harm, no foul.
I use other converters too (6 different brands)
I prefer Apogee. I hope that quells your suspicions. I make a living using gear, not selling it. We all get a little nutty when we find great gear that works for us. One man's meat.....
cool?
I hope so,
chap

[Brad Blackwood]

Yeah, what he said...

I've never been a big fan of Apogees - I prefer Lavry and Crane Song - but that's personal taste. Does that mean that if I used Apogee converters my records would sound worse?

NO.

'Nuff said.

[lucey]

Originally posted by Teacher
chap, kittonian

Why do you feel people have a vendetta against apogee?

its just one man's(in this case few men) opinion...y worry about them and do you?...it seems a lil fishy the evangelic defense both of you guys come with for apogee...shit even atticus doesn't act like that and he works for benchmark!

EVERYONE IS A SALES MAN.

We may not like the tactic but they are all gear slutz ... and so are we!


The problem here is that the Cleveland guy is a misinformed jerk of a slut ... with WAY too much PR slime and no sense of his position as opinion, personal and guided by his wallet.