The dance/pop mix/master comp/lim THEORY thread

[Apollo Soul]

I don't have an analog mixer, but I've been finding the softclip on The Glue very useful for the same purpose. It definitely distorts, but it does so in a way that really seems to work for electronic drums, and yeilds a perfectly consistent level to boot. I like the way it redraws the attack... in a way, it doesn't yeild a kick + snare, but a kick/snare. I'll sometimes feed it a little extra attack knowing it will be smoothed out just a bit, but still a nice click at the front of the kick.

Also seems to do well on subgroups with drums and bass... evening out those patches where kick and bass hit together, and blending the attack.

It's distortion can wreck some other things though, like held notes on instruments, or ringing cymbals, vocals.


The verb is one issue in terms of getting the vox to sit for sure, but I'm talking about just the final leveling part.

If you have music that's already heavily compressed and limited, and very even, and then you add vocals, you will, of course, have the vocal kicking up some new peaks.

Wondering what the best way is to then compress, limit, duck, do something to get the overall level evened out with minimal distortion to the vocals.

[djshiny]

Originally Posted by Apollo Soul

Not in the least.

Franky, where I'm coming from is pretty far on the opposite end of the spectrum... at least as far as top40 dance/pop produced in the last couple of decades could be.



Stated goals:

1 To create dance/pop that is not pushing the loudness envelope, but in a generally competitive loudness range with modern productions while maintaining greater sonic integrity than most of the comparable tracks

2 To do so while minimizing if not eliminating the need for the most destructive thing of all: The use of extreme limiting on the master.



I really don't think it's that hard to understand. If the individual tracks and stems/busses are tamed and thickened before mixdown, then there will still be peaks... they just won't be so wildly varied.

I still WANT peaks. Like I said... I WANT to get an ssl style pump going for the purposeful introduction of motion that it gives.

The problem is that something like an ssl isn't touching the first 10ms or so of the signal... so the question remains... what do you do about those peaks?



Well, as was mentioned... if those peaks are more consistent, then half the density battle is already won as the distance between peaks and rms is lessened.

If not... the WORST possible time to deal with it would be during mastering.

That extra 5db jump that's above and beyond the next downbeat isn't going to lead to a satisfying pump from a compressor, it's going to be pure distortion from the ME's most aggressive limiter. The pump from the compressor is already there... just like it would have been if the peak had been tamed a bit first. The ssl reacted exactly the same to it either way. The only difference is what has to happen to the mix later if it isn't tamed first.


Once the egg is scrambled, there's really no way to tame errant peaks WITHOUT destroying the mix.

Hey Apollo Soul,

I generally use harmonic distortion and/or "tape" saturation on my busses. Harmonic distortion is great being that it kinda makes everything feel and sound louder without actually increasing db level too much. same with tape saturation. SPL twin tube is pretty awesome for this, also, the waves Kramer tape emulator is pretty awesome when it comes to ITB.

also, to control some of the peaks on the busses, i use CLA 2a from waves with just a tiny tiny tiny bit of gain reduction, 1-2 db, just make sure to pull the output back as that plugin in particular shoots out hot. best of luck!!

[Apollo Soul]

I've never much liked the digital exciters, harmonic generators, and such. Real tubes can work wonders sometimes.

The wavearts tube sounds pretty good, but I've never tried it in small doses on a buss.

Definitely helping quite a bit to do limiting on busses.

First off, I can't believe no one has mentioned this, but the biggest and FIRST step in the work backward from the worst peaks approach is something I now do on every song that has any type of house beat..

... and that is to send the kick and snare to a buss, and set a brickwall limiter so it just barely lets the kick alone through with no limiting. Then, when the kick and snare hit together, the peak will be exactly the same as the kick alone. It gets a great, thick, and well blended tone to then adjust the snare volume as necessary, but no matter what, the peaks going out on every beat will be exactly the same.

Then, I'll feed that to the full drum buss to limit any spots where a drum break or something lands on a peak from the kick/snare.

Then would be the drums and bass together... you get the idea.

I just wish I'd figured this stuff out sooner. It's making a BIG difference at mixdown and mastering stages.

I just finished mixing a track I had done different mix for earlier. Got it to a db hotter than before with much LESS noticable distortion, pumping, etc.

Other thing I'm just blown away by lately is how useful the peak clip function in the Glue can be. Really can't understand why more people aren't using that. It can really work wonders on EDM drums.

[Apollo Soul]

Actually, here's a bit of what I'm talking about.

Just finished this mix. Shooting a video starting tomorrow.

The vocals are a bit grainy, but that's in the recording (closet, cheap interface, etc)

Overall, the mix is punchier, and crystal clear. The total mix is hotter than I had it before, and yet it doesn't sound odd as it goes from section to section due to the limiters hitting things differently.

I've got probably 20 limiters and a dozen instances of the Glue's softclip going. The only compressor aside from individual tracks is the Glue on the karaoke buss (before vocals added) dong 2db total with 30ms attack, and auto release. If I needed more, I'd have done another instance with 30ms attack, and fastest release so that no one release characteristic dominates the sound. Seemed enough as it was, though.

Number of limiters extreme, but again, the whole point here was to do things in a more invisible fashion per track so that nothing crazy needed to be done later.

I won't describe the cascade of soft clips going on with the karaoke buss as even die-hards would think it's crazy. (ALL the slots are in use) Overall, though, the goal was accomplished which is that by the time the vocals are mixed in, there are no peaks higher than the majority of other peaks, so at no point will the vocal have to be crushed to accomodate something else going on.

Overall on the mixbuss/mastering side, there was only a need for 4db of total reduction... which I did by using 4 instances of the same limiter, but with different settings so no one attack or release characteristic dominates. Basic philosophy for this was to do the instant attack and release, hard knee part first, then work in -1db stages down toward something with a 12ms lookahead, 70ms release, and knee of 12db.

Again, though only 4db of total reduction from everything on the MB. I could probably drop one of the stages and go with 3db total gr, and have a bit more open sound as well. This is on the heavy handed side of what my ears hear as ok.

I actually ended up using just one last instance of the Glue's soft clip on the MB at the end (which I thought I wouldn't do and generally wouldn't advise because of the vocals, guitars, and other elements that sound bad when it distorts them), but the lookahead limiting had softened the kick's attack a bit too much, and having the Glue redraw it for me seemed to do the trick putting just the right degree of click back into it. That click seems to be masking any problems with the other elements (except mild distortion on the 808's), so I guess it worked. You really do have to a/b with it on and off though as it can wreck something quick if you're not listening for it's artifacts.

Anyway, this mix is now a poster child example of the whole limiting in stages discussion if I've ever heard one... for better or worse. MB limiting is perhaps a touch heavy handed, but the overall approach seems like it works to my ears anyway. One major thing I notice is the lack of ducking and weaving that vocals would typically do under extreme MB comp/limiting when material is as syncopated as this with nooks and crannies causing the limiters to be in constant motion with extreme swings.

Maybe it's easier to just limit a wall of guitars , synth pads, and bass with held notes. I don't really know as none of my stuff is like that.

I'm not exactly sure how people measure master rms, but according to my screen, it's showing as a master somewhwere in the -9.5 to -10db range... which is actually just a little hotter than what I had intended, but it seems to work.

I can't quite tell if the vocals are at the right level, but that's something I never can judge in my own stuff anyway. Overall, though, the major elements sound to me pretty much like I intended.


oops, didn't mean to hit send yet. hold on... upload issues...

[Apollo Soul]

many tries later...