High-End 3k-5k Condensers - Really That Good/Better? And Worth The Cost?

[Jim Williams]

The days of $3k mics are changing, fast. Look at all those botique guys making mics, they mostly use Chi-comm capsules made at very low cost.

Some of them are very good too. They will learn and improve as well. I expect the EU mic manufacturers to take advantage of that and use Chi-comm sources just like Celestian did with speaker manufacturing. The fact that Celestian did not lower prices to relect lower production costs just means their Brit rep is still in effect and they are pocketing the profits. I buy American made Eminence speakers myself, I find them superior and less costly.

These days you can build an excellent mic for a couple hundred bucks, I have.
I no longer buy expensive mics, I build them from parts and do my own circuit designs here. So far I'm loving the results and the $$$ I saved.

[cinealta]

If you're in a home studio, and not a commercial recording studio, save your money.

Invest in your instruments. Get yourself a beautiful Martin acoustic or Les Paul. What's the point having a $3k mic and mediocre instruments? You will always play your instruments (maybe even sitting on the couch) but you will not always record your instruments (necessitating an expensive mic). You can always rent high-end mics when you want to record. Quite frankly, there are sub-$2k mics (eg Gefell, Pearlman etc) that sound just as good, if not better than, >$3k mics.

Have you heard any U2 records? Bono was singing into a Shure SM58 Beta in the control room. Springsteen's Nebraska was a Shure SM57. Michael Jackson used an SM7. These are not expensive mics. Blink 182 guitars were Gefell mics. Matt Nathanson acoustic and vocals on a Pearlman. Imogen Heap sings into a TLM103. Chris Martin (Coldplay) & Sting use 414's. I could go on and on.

Invest in your instruments first.

[binarymilton]

Originally Posted by Gatsby

I record in a home studio and I'm still fairly new to recording.

I'd hold off on buying a $3000 mic then.

I've never owned a $3000 anything (apart from the apartment I live in).

When you've made your first $5000 from music, that's the time to consider buying a $3000 mic.

[decocco]

You should be able to get some great sounds out of a 414. A totally respectable and hi-fi mic.

For me, it's more important to have a variety of good quality mics that can be used in different situations than it is to have one "golden" mic. You may need mics with different patterns, different sensitivities, different frequency responses. Mics are just tools and you need different tools for different jobs.

[DeadPoet]

I agree with the above answers but have to say my eyes (ears?) opened when I stepped up from having a Peluso 251 and 12 as 'best mics in the closet' to a Flea 49, 12 and 47... there IS a definite difference.

But I do agree it takes a while to appreciate these differences. I remember a shootout between a Wunder CM7 and a Peluso 47 and not hearing the difference..



Herwig

[Jonathawkes]

An amateur working out of a home "studio" won't benefit from a $3000 mic. If anything it might be more likely to pick up your fridge, computer, street noises, and also the less than ideal acoustics of a typical bedroom. Get an AT4050 and some SM57s, for example, and you'll be golden until you gain some experience and hopefully one day, a nice tracking room.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by Gatsby

Hey everybody, I'm wondering about something and need some answers. I record in a home studio and I'm still fairly new to recording. So I don't own a huge collection of mics quite yet. But I'm working on getting more mics. What I'm wondering about is whether high-end condensers that cost from 3k-5k are that much better than their cheaper counterparts? I mean spending an extra 1k-2k on a mic will it be that much better? And is the benefit worth the cost?

For example, one of the mics I own is an AKG414, which while not super high-end still costs a good deal at around $1,000. Do I really need a 3k-5k priced mic like a U87? Or a Brauner mic or Bock mic etc? What can these high-end mics do that cheaper yet still respectable mics can't? And is the more expensive circuitry (that I assume is used in these higher-end mics) really more capable of stellar recordings? Or is the cost of these more expensive condensers a result of adding a tube and tube circuitry into the mix since it seems most of these higher-end mics include tubes?

To mention what I record, I record vocals, electric guitar, bass guitar, banjo, acoustic guitar, and synths fed through speakers. And I'm wondering do I eventually need to save up $3,000 to get one of these higher-end mics, say for the purpose of having a supposedly killer vocal mic? Especially when that money could instead buy me several cheaper mics that are still pricey and great at what they do? Because as ignorant as I might possibly be now, I currently have no interest in picking up a super high-end condenser such as a U87, a U47, a Bock 151, a Bock 241, a Brauner Valvet, a Neumann M149, etc. (The most expensive mic I have interest in, the exception to my current avoidance of spending thousands on just one mic, is the AEA R44CE, a ribbon mic, for $2500).

Comments??? Answers???

better
no bleeping way
is more expensive more better
that is the myth of the golden eared stereophile subscriber

they are different
but different is only different not better

not worth it to me
but if you like the difference then use them

[dkelley]

despite my use of many low budget mics, I will never sell or trade away my blue kiwi - the single best female pop vocal recording mic I've ever had the fortune to own.

It's high end, I suppose. Also the only modern mic I've ever owned that gave me chills to use on vocals.

[Vintageidiot]

Having heard the Wunder Cm7 GT, I was totally convinced that it would top off all that I had invested previously. That mic is just wonderful.

[sonic dogg]

Originally Posted by Vintageidiot

Having heard the Wunder Cm7 GT, I was totally convinced that it would top off all that I had invested previously. That mic is just wonderful.

Theres 'others' that do that same thing.

I think theres a plateau after $1500. Nothing above that mark sounds 'bad'. Different......And depending on your space, skills, and gear as well as application there are a lot of $1000 mics that give very pleasing results. Again, none are bad at that price point, just different.

Do you "need" this?

Its all up to the individual.

I dont 'need' it but I sure do LIKE it.

[Gatsby]

cinealta good points. I do read about big bands sometimes recording with pretty inexpensive mics. The magazine Sound On Sound occasionally has some good articles about an album recording and what was used. I already do have some good instruments, a HD28V Martin, a Gibson Modern Classic Hummingbird, a Gibson 61 reissue SG guitar, a Rickenbacker 4003 bass guitar, other instruments, synths, pricey amps, and on and on. So I'm covered there... Although I still build and invest in that stuff as well. There's a $1900 Mesa Boogie guitar amp, the Electra Dyne, that I'm dying to eventually get.

binarymilton what you say makes sense, but I've already crossed the crazy expensive purchases for just a home studio mark... Other than instruments I've got stuff like a Burl B2 Bomber ADC, an Aurora Audio GTQ2 mic pre, etc. I don't really mind spending crazy money on recording even if I'm not doing it as a professional job or at a professional level, because it's my one hobby and I'm a Gear Slut!

decocco you make an excellant point, getting various flavors of mics rather than buying one crazy expensive mic to be the greatest and best. That's what I'm trying to do right now. I actually learned a lot just today listening through the audio clips of tons of mics that the website Zen Pro Audio offers in the form of their "Clipalator". It's crazy how different mics can so drastically change your sound. So yeah, I'm definitely looking for all the different flavors. For some reason I'm not crazy about condensers and I feel fine with just an AKG414 and a Neumann KM184 at this point, but I'm trying to get some more dynamic mics and my first ribbon mics. For dynamic mics I only own a SM57 currently, but I just ordered a Heil Sound PR40 for miking my bass amp. I think not too long from now I'll also pick up a Beyerdynamic M88 TG. And then for ribbons, I'm leaning towards either an AEA R92 or R84. And to contradict my starting points, I admittedly am in love with the AEA R44, a $2500 mic, and the AEA KU4, a $4500 mic... But I don't think I could spend that much on just a mic...

Excellant points Jonathawkes. I might have to lie and say that the computer noise picked up and outside street noise picked up is really purposeful ambience I meant to add, Lol. Yeah, stuff like that is definitely an issue. But I might at some point move from out of a suburban town into a more rural, isolated place lacking those street noises. Although yeah, computer noise sucks and some of my amps are pretty noisey.

[popmann]

First "worth the cost" is utterly subjective and relative.

Second...the cost is about LDCs. I make the best sounding recordings of my career...and the only LDC I use regularly is an old UM70 on my voice. I just think, when I comes to new ones, $3k is where I start being interested in using them. Acoustic instruments are so much truer with SDCs, which don't cost nearly as much to produce good results. Dynamics and ribbons handle close mic'ing chores better than cheaper LDCs.

Third...I always recommend a simple trio for a home recordist: sm7b, and a pair of sm81s. Under a grand...consistent quality...solid build...will do anything well. I record my Leslie...my acoustic gtr...my acoustic piano...and hand percussion with them. And while I use a royer 121 on amps and the gefell on my voice, the sm7 is second best at either.

LDCs are so hot and miss on different sources and musical contexts...until you get into the really pricey ones...I find it odd that people seem so enamoured by them. I have two left...the gefell and an old 414eb. Basically, mid forward and mid recessed-both multi pattern, which really is the most useful and under utilized feature of LDCs.

So, yes, there is a difference...but, no, you likely don't need any of them to make a great recording-just pass on the cheap ones.

[Bristol_Jonesey]

There's absolutely zero point in spending that much on a high end mic if your room isn't of similar quality.

If you really want to throw that much away, I'll PM you my bank account details.

[Eiko]

Originally Posted by sonic dogg

I think theres a plateau after $1500. Nothing above that mark sounds 'bad'. Different......And depending on your space, skills, and gear as well as application there are a lot of $1000 mics that give very pleasing results. Again, none are bad at that price point, just different.

You make a C414 sound like an amateur mic. There has to be a reason why you'll find these mics almost everywhere, and there's no doubt a 414 is a Pro mic (even though it is below your $1500 mark).


BTW I do believe that those high end mics are mostly overrated. Most people wont hear the difference anyway, and even cheaper mics are perfectly capable of producing great results, that even the most fanatic audiophile would like. It's other bits in the chain that matter IMHO.

This whole issue reminds me a bit of "pixel peeping", something a lot of photo amateurs like to engage in to determine the quality of an image.

[slaphappy]

Wow.

It amazes me that in most threads (thousands in this place!), gear matters. Particularly microphones. Particularly on vocals. Goodness!

Then there are these threads, where for some strange reason, the rules all of a sudden change, and the mic doesn't matter so much (especially if it's a 414?). Because, after all, you won't notice a difference, or it's not worth it because you're recording at home, or because listeners can't hear good for bad.

Dang. Why not just close up shop here at GS if that's the way it is.

What matters is that YOU, the engineering artist notices the difference. And that's what you want to know. Will a u87 capture the nuances of your voice better than your 414? Will an AEA 44 express your aesthetic on a more satisfying level?

Maybe. Probably. Maybe not. The only way to know is to try. But try within your budget- don't go testing mics that you can't afford. But I will say that if an 87 is on your try list, you can find plenty of nice used ones for around $2k. Guess what? If you need to dump it, you can sell it real fast for $1800. A good, used u87 holds its value like no other mic. The risk is super low. That's where I would start.

My guess is that you'll like it much better than your 414.

[Jonathawkes]

Originally Posted by slaphappy

Wow.

It amazes me that in most threads (thousands in this place!), gear matters. Particularly microphones. Particularly on vocals. Goodness!

Then there are these threads, where for some strange reason, the rules all of a sudden change, and the mic doesn't matter so much (especially if it's a 414?). Because, after all, you won't notice a difference, or it's not worth it because you're recording at home, or because listeners can't hear good for bad.

Dang. Why not just close up shop here at GS if that's the way it is.

What matters is that YOU, the engineering artist notices the difference. And that's what you want to know. Will a u87 capture the nuances of your voice better than your 414? Will an AEA 44 express your aesthetic on a more satisfying level?

Maybe. Probably. Maybe not. The only way to know is to try. But try within your budget- don't go testing mics that you can't afford. But I will say that if an 87 is on your try list, you can find plenty of nice used ones for around $2k. Guess what? If you need to dump it, you can sell it real fast for $1800. A good, used u87 holds its value like no other mic. The risk is super low. That's where I would start.

My guess is that you'll like it much better than your 414.

I don't think anyone said that gear didn't matter. Just that in this context it doesn't make much sense to spend that kind of money. Why ask a question like "should I buy a $5000 mic?" if the only response on Gearslutz can be "Yes! Must buy more gear ALWAYS!!!!"

[slaphappy]

Originally Posted by Jonathawkes

I don't think anyone said that gear didn't matter. Just that in this context it doesn't make much sense to spend that kind of money. Why ask a question like "should I buy a $5000 mic?" if the only response on Gearslutz can be "Yes! Must buy more gear ALWAYS!!!!"

Well, the only context here is the 414, and the voice. And the question is simple- will the op get better results with a different (more expensive!) microphone.

Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. Only he can decide. I can get fine results through a 414 eb (the holy grail one with the brass c12 capsule), but I still prefer a u87, by far. And to me, it's well worth the difference in price.

Moderately priced LDC Mics like the 414, 4050, ksm 32, etc... will never hold you back if you are a decent singer. But, man, there are some mics that can just make certain vocals sound better, and sometimes they cost more and are worth it. (And sometimes they are cheap and worth it.)

But the overall feeling of this thread was 'why bother?' Shoot...why bother with any of this?

[chris@theblue]

What mic pres are you using?

good pres will make such a big difference
you will hear such detail. . .and unwanted background

if you already have pro mic pres. . .
Stick to cardiod style LDC's or SDC's.

C

[sonic dogg]

Originally Posted by Eiko

You make a C414 sound like an amateur mic. There has to be a reason why you'll find these mics almost everywhere, and there's no doubt a 414 is a Pro mic (even though it is below your $1500 mark).


BTW I do believe that those high end mics are mostly overrated. Most people wont hear the difference anyway, and even cheaper mics are perfectly capable of producing great results, that even the most fanatic audiophile would like. It's other bits in the chain that matter IMHO.

This whole issue reminds me a bit of "pixel peeping", something a lot of photo amateurs like to engage in to determine the quality of an image.

If you can seriously point out anywhere in my post I mentioned ANY mic specifically I'd be more than willing to discuss it.
Personally I think that most of the 414's are great generic mics. They have a lot of detail and will record a lot of different sources without problems.

But that wasnt my point nor was it involved in my post you so aptly quoted. I didnt say anything about mics below this price-point because this was the range that was being discussed. SO, in order to make it simpler for you, "Theres also a LOT of great sounding mics in the $500-$1000 range. All have their own sound and all are servicable of many sources". Happy?

Someone with discerning ears can, in fact, hear the small differences in the nuances of different gear. I can.

If it matters then it matters. It matters to me and it might matter to the OP. If it doesnt matter to you then goodonya and have a nice day.

[gutr2]

IMO, instruments and acoustic treatment should come first, but then mics, mic pres and converters.
I'm going to go against the grain of this thread and say YES, it's definitely worth it.
There's a HUGE difference between a 414 and a higher priced mic. Especially for vocals. I had a U87 and a 414 at the same time, and couldn't sell the 414 fast enough, there was nothing that the U87 couldn't do a alot better. And I say a lot.
Then I bought a Korby system, a HUGE leap from the U87, etc..
If I had to, I'd swap all my mic pres to make that switch. Luckily I don't have to :o)
I don't want to sound cocky but I kind of feel sorry for the guys that can't hear much difference between low/mid and high end stuff. IF they can't hear it, it doesn't mean it's not there! On the other hand, they end up saving a lot a money :o)

[cinealta]

It's not one of my favorite mics but in fairness we should clarify that all 414s are not created equal. Can't really compares vintage CK12 capsules ("brass ring") with modern nylon ones. Can't really group EB's with ULS, TL, XLS, XLII etc. Gotta compare apples with apples.

[gtrpedal]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The days of $3k mics are changing, fast. Look at all those botique guys making mics, they mostly use Chi-comm capsules made at very low cost.

Some of them are very good too. They will learn and improve as well. I expect the EU mic manufacturers to take advantage of that and use Chi-comm sources just like Celestian did with speaker manufacturing. The fact that Celestian did not lower prices to relect lower production costs just means their Brit rep is still in effect and they are pocketing the profits.

It's wrong to think this way. Just because they didn't drop the price does not mean they're pocketing the difference. Have you considered that maybe their operating expenses went up (and/or had been going up before the outsourcing?). Don't blame the mfg for raising prices or not passing along (perceived) savings. Blame the politicians and central bankers for devaluing our currencies.

[Unclenny]

Lots of good points above.....particularly about the role that a good recording environment plays in really appreciating a good microphone as well as how that good mic is partnered up with its recording chain.

I went from a KSM32 to a Peluso 251 in my humble digs and the difference was very appreciable. That move forced me to pay a lot more attention to my ambient sounds when tracking vox.

In the big house I have been going through a Lawson 47 MKII in a nice room through a very tasty preamp/comp chain and the difference between that stuff and the stuff coming out of my own place is quite remarkable.

[bigfurry]

I would suggest looking at it a bit differently. To your original question, I think you don't need a 3-5k LDC. I do think the other side of the equation is the 414. Sometimes they're great, but I never took to them on vocals. Also Ive found that tube mics for singers with some dynamic range is really a good thing, which may or not be you.
So I would suggest that there are many mics in and around 600-1500 that may give you a noticable upgrade- or not, you be the judge.

AT (4047/4060), ADk, AEA (R84) (and thats just the A's!) are worth investigating if you're intrigued.

Good Luck!

[Apollo Soul]

There has never existed a better time to buy mics.

If your goal is to buy one mic in the sub $2k range that will allow you to get pro results all-around...

... you actually have multiple choices and flavors available that are more than up for the task.

I was actually just in this position... $5k to spend, and it really didn't make any sense to spend all that on the mic with so many great cheaper options, and so many other uses for the money.

Result: Two great comps AND a pro quality mic.

[Bob Olhsson]

To me, there are three categories of mikes:

1. the classics. You can just set these mikes up and hit record trusting that a shootout would only be likely to lead you to something that is subtly better that may or may not sound any better in the final mix. There is no substitute for the proven classics when you need to work really fast with whoever walks in the door.

2. the high-end non-classic. You'll need to shoot these out to find the one that fits. Each sounds fabulous on some voices and very mediocre on others.

3. the low-end condensers. These have the same problems as #2 with the added issue of great variation from unit to unit. I would not recommend one without auditioning the specific mike on the specific voice that you intend to record.