Logic: Lower output = Clearer mix through Big Knob?!?

[Rufuss Sewell]

Hi, I'm mixing an album in Logic and I'm experiencing something kind of strange. Eventually it will be mixed through my Daking board. But first I'm automating everything in Logic.

The signal chain is Logic > Motu 2408 via ADAT > Rosetta 800 clocked by Big Ben > Signex Bantam balanced patchbay > Mackie Big Knob > Adam S2.5A's.

What's happening is this. I started out with Logic running pretty hot on the main output, peaking around -2db. Then I decided I needed more headroom. And with Logic being a 32bit floating program I can lower the output 4db to, say raise the kick 4db without anything clipping. It's pretty useful.

But I noticed that when I lowered the output and turned up the Big Knob, everything sounded better. So with the mouse in my right hand and the Big Knob in my left, I started raising one while I lowered the other. It sounded best when Logic was peaking around -20db and I had the Big Knob cranked?!?

What the hell? At this absurd setting the cymbals were much more clear and musical sounding and everything had better separation. Back at the high output in Logic with the Big Knob low, the cymbals sounded harsh and the mix was more muddy. I could easily slide between the two settings keeping the volume relatively the same and hear the transition from good to poo.

What's going on here? Is this the sound of the Big Knob everyone keeps talking about? Does the Big Knob just not take high input signals well? Or does Logic make different calculations based on the output level making it sound different? I assume the Big Knob is at fault, but I don't know. I don't have anything else with a volume knob on it to compare.

Will some of you other Big Knob owners try this with whatever software you are using to see if you can hear it?

Thanks! ~J

[u b k]

i hear differences in itb mixes where the levels are all kept low, but they're in the order of the subtle. if the difference is as dramatic as you say, i'd be pointing a finger at the big knob's input stages.

in any case, and forgive me if you know this stuff already, you should calibrate your metering and monitoring to optimize your gainstaging and headroom. if you get a mix going with the peaks at -10dbFS and a 9-12db peak-to-average ratio, trim the d/a->big knob connection so that you're hearing 85db's at the listening position with the knob at 2 o'clock (if your speakers have input pots, set them around 70%). use a radio shack $30 analog db meter for this process, you'll be grateful for the purchase.

that should clean things up for you, and if you're not already mixing at 85db, your mixes will thank you as well.


gregoire
del ubik

[Rufuss Sewell]

Cool, I didn't know about the calibration stuff. I'll work on that. I'm still pretty new to a lot of this equipment.

[theblotted]

the issue might be a combination of the gainstaging in Logic and Big Knob.

DAW levels:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...t=35847&page=4
(the thread's title and content is a bit different.. read on.. lower levels into mix buss issue)

as for big knob, i've found that it colors and affects the mix.. iow, not letting you hear how the mix should be sounding. wreaks havoc.

[Jazzpunk]

I know it's off topic but, oooh...nice space echo.

Looks like a great spot to be creative

[Dave Peck]

Why are you using the Big Knob at all? Why not just run the main L/R buss out of the computer to a 2-trk input on the Daking and use the control room functions on the Daking to control playback levels?

DP

[max cooper]

I was wondering the same thing.

Also, how about running the analog output from a CD player into the BK and doing the same test? You're going from a D/A converter output into the BK, right?

Also, fwiw, I think I'd be tempted to not have a patchbay in the monitoring chain. I know it's probably minutiae, but so are a lot of things at that point.

Cheers!

Max

[Rufuss Sewell]

Actually my Daking doesn't have monitoring facilities. It's kind of a weird hybrid of a full console and a sidecar. It's the other half of RobMix's console, but I didn't have the bread to do all the fancy stuff. It still has 4 aux sends, 8 busses and 2 sets of summed stereo. But it doesn't have a monitor section, headphones, or talkback... which is why I thought the Big Knob would be a perfect match. But maybe I can use two channels on the Daking for monitors. God knows I don't need all 32 channels. I only have 24 channels of converters. But I'm also using a sub which is easy to make work with the Adam's all going through the BK. Maybe I'd have to use 3 channels. hmmm... so many options. I need to get someone to come over and help me get this stuff set up right.