Low end drives me crazy!!-help???ideas???

[Mr.HOLMES]

Hi Folks.

I need some inspiration.

Over the years I mix my songs myself and sometimes stuff for friends.
If I could afford a professional I would not hesitate to do so.

One thing really drives me crazy with all my mixes.

If I listen to mixes I love I can say OK everything what is above 100 Hz fine I can do this as well.
But the low end- wow this is magical in pro-mixes.

The Kick is still some kind of 3D and the base player and or synth base melts together with the kick.

A. Mixing into a bus compressor NOPE- not what I want!
B. Sending to different busses with compression or limiters- NO!
C. Using UAD AMPEX - WOW but yet I have no money for it!
D. Someone told me it has to do with if the kick and base play propper in time it gives the impression they melt together???

There must be other ways to do it.
What is it?
Or is it a special approach I can train?

I can hear this nice low end special when I listen to 70s Stevie Wonder Songs. Any hint is welcome so I can try new ideas....

Mr.Holmes

[FreshSkweez]

There's really no magic in this. It's all about the right eq (and compression). You've been around for a while so I feel silly asking you this but have you tried putting bass hi (100-200Hz) and kick lo (60-80Hz)? Making a hole in the bass exactly for the kick to fit in? Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

[FreshSkweez]

Also compression with the right envelope is key. Make sure you bass is super even whatever it takes but has very defined transients. Make sure your kick is tight and fat (25-35 ms transient) so that it can withstand heavy limiting in mastering

[RonGherkins]

I think you should check out some metering software and compare your mixes to a mix you like to visualize the differences in the low end. This helps some people, and it really can't hurt as long as you also use your ears.

What is your monitoring environment like?

[Mr.HOLMES]

Thanks to all who wrote back.
Its hard to type about sound...

1.Monitoring
Monitoring is with +/- 7 db alright to me.
We where building up the room here form scratch over the past 7 months.
But I also have reference cans.

2.Example
Listening to Stevie Wonder - Living for the city-

The Kick has nearly no transient and is more felt than heart but is till 3D in the whole mix. It melts together with the synth base..... WOW.

3.Metering...
Yes I own Spectre and the crazy thing is I can mix it that it meets the same freq-range like the reference song....but the low end feels like salad-dip.

I cant exclude that I am doing something fundamental wrong when EQing the base range - if someone can give an example of a song he or she mixed and the base ranges melts together.
It would be nice to see some pics of the EQ settings.

I saw MHB posting about this topic. He was mentioning to EQ it till it sounds right...but mähhh I can EQ for hours and it never sounds like I want it.

I am sure I am doing something WRONG!!!
But I cant put my finger in it....

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by FreshSkweez

There's really no magic in this. It's all about the right eq (and compression). You've been around for a while so I feel silly asking you this but have you tried putting bass hi (100-200Hz) and kick lo (60-80Hz)? Making a hole in the bass exactly for the kick to fit in? Maybe I'm not understanding your question.

fresh thanks I have tried both of your ideas.
but my base range always sounds separated both elements stand for their own and are detached from the rest of the picture.

I tried many things now and all I can say is that I can start from scratch with the mix now----

[Nick Morris]

You mentioned your room earlier. This is really important to have fleshed out. Do your monitors reproduce the low end you need to hear to sculpt it properly?

I remember being in your situation when I first got going. This was a time when my monitoring situation was awful and thankfully I had to move to a new location. As soon as I got working in the new mix room, everything sounded soooo different in the lows. It made me mix the bass with less 130hz on down and more 160-250hz. This gave a ton more room for the bass and lifted the veil from everything.

[Mite]

One of the best things to do is - add harmonics/distortion parallel to the bass. try .... Phoenix II/Decapitator. Basically you need to fill the mix with extra grit/dirt/color/warmth - whatever you wanna call it without overloading the lows. So on your bass track just get rid of the things you don't like, then add the missing parts. I always go with 2-3 parallel busses and 1176 all buttons to hold it tight/decapitator/chorus-doubler.
Hope that helps.
D

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Nick Morris

You mentioned your room earlier. This is really important to have fleshed out. Do your monitors reproduce the low end you need to hear to sculpt it properly?

I remember being in your situation when I first got going. This was a time when my monitoring situation was awful and thankfully I had to move to a new location. As soon as I got working in the new mix room, everything sounded soooo different in the lows. It made me mix the bass with less 130hz on down and more 160-250hz. This gave a ton more room for the bass and lifted the veil from everything.

The monitoring situation cant be too bad because just few bars of professional mixes and it jumps into my ear.
A nice low end where kick and bass is sitting nicely together, the AKG K701 cans are super linear and they provide the same I hear on the monitors.

I tried also the tack cutting on the kick and boosting the opposite on the base. I don't get it to the point where I want it.
It cant be primely the gear or the room it must be me the OP.

Making your kick drum and bass line sit nicely together in the mix.
04/23/2004
Q: "How do I keep the kick from burying the bass (or bass burying the kick) in my mix?"

A: The most prevalent sonic signature of popular music is the blending of kick drum and bass. Since much of the power in a mix comes from the bass frequencies, the way kick and bass are handled is crucial from a mix perspective as well as a stylistic viewpoint. Generally objective is to have them work together as a unit, and yet still hear them individually. A typical problem is that the kick drum seems to get lost in the mix while the overall bottom sounds muddy. Assuming a good performance on each instrument, the perfect marriage of kick and bass rests mainly in equalization (or EQ as it is called). The frequency range of the bass and drums overlaps in the low frequency range through the low midrange. The attack of the bass is heard between 700 - 1000Hz, while the attack of the kick drum presents information at 3000 to 4000Hz.

A common trick to getting a full sound between kick and bass while retaining clarity is to boost the lows on the kick (60-80Hz) cut the low mids anywhere from 150Hz to 400Hz (sometimes called the mudrange) and boost the highs at around 3000Hz. This will provide a solid low end, remove some of the mud in the midrange and accentuate the attack of the kick pedal on the drum. For the bass, we do pretty much the opposite; cut the lows where you boosted them on the kick (60-80Hz) boost the bass at around 120 - 150Hz which will provide a full bass sound (while occupying the frequency space we made by cutting the kick drum in this range), and boost the highs at around 900Hz since bass also provides information in that range as well. In short, we are emphasizing the frequencies that are important to the sound of each, while cutting the frequencies where they can conflict. Try this technique. You'll get a full bottom with a clear thump with a defined attack in the kick and a clear, full bass.

Another important thing to keep in mind is what we said earlier about the most power in the mix coming from the low end; EQ is frequency dependent amplification, which means that we are boosting the power of a particular frequency. Too much boost can result in either distortion or less headroom in the mix for other instruments, so use it sparingly. If you're boosting a frequency in one instrument, you should cut that frequency in another instrument, as our kick and bass technique describes. Overall, EQ is most effective as a subtractive device, not additive.

NO its not working....waht ever freq. I cut or boost it always sounds detached from the rest.

[saciestudio]

For me exciters go a long way on what you want. I like tape/tube sims, some I have used and liked are Voxengo AF Tapebus, Izotope Ozone Exciter on the Tube mode, Waves MPX, always just a little touch that makes the difference you seem to want. Just don´t overuse as it gets distorted and plastic on excess.

[lllubi]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Hi Folks.
I can hear this nice low end special when I listen to 70s Stevie Wonder Songs. Any hint is welcome so I can try new ideas....

Brainworx´s Vertigo VSC-2 plug does the trick for me now

[Mr.HOLMES]

Ok the saturation hint in parrales brings me nearer to what I want.
If I now could get the compression to work right smoothing out the attacks and sounding more round.

Tried logics-compressor,uad 1176,uad 33609,UAD LA3A.

It sounds still to aggressive.....

The most fascinating thing for me was the UAD Ampex thing it did it on the busses but 350$ not in my pocket....

[saciestudio]

I don't do parallel, also as people sad about carving the frequency domain (eq) you might try to carve the time/dynamic part, setting different attacks for kick and bass, I usually let some of the kick thump pass through (higher attack/release), and the bass with shorter attack/release, taking just a pinch of the attack. Sidechaining could be useful also. This approach is not for level riding, it´s more for transient shaping with the compressor. I usually play with all these in the input section and the buss processing. Saturation, leveling, carving EQ, shaping transients, seems a lot but in practice it´s 3 plugins per track plus a buss sometimes.
I´d saturate first, tape and tube, to keep some of the dynamic in the distortion from the saturations, then level ride with slow compressors, then transient shaping, sometimes a slow limiter, sometimes a fast comp at 1.5 ratio and threshold real low, or even a fast limiter, then blend together in a bus with more saturation and compression/limiting only if needed. Always just a pinch of saturation and just a few dB shaved, on the loudest part 3dB at each processor....

[Jerrick]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Ok the saturation hint in parrales brings me nearer to what I want.
If I now could get the compression to work right smoothing out the attacks and sounding more round.

Tried logics-compressor,uad 1176,uad 33609,UAD LA3A.

It sounds still to aggressive.....

Softube CL1B. I know its a bit spendy, but for me, "Smoothing out the attacks and sounding more round." is exactly what I hear when I use it on bass.

[robertshaw]

treat your room!!!! dontcha know?

just kidding

but a spectrum analyzer can help you visualize as a checksum to your monitoring.

you should high pass most instruments anyway and those others roll it off. The only things that should be heavy under 100hz is kick and bass gtr and like floor tom. everyhting else should either not be there at all or rolled off so it tapers nicely in the lows Sometimes subbass syth texture is cool but clean everything else up it will sound better and tighter and less muddy.

[Funny Cat]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

you should high pass most instruments anyway and those others roll it off. The only things that should be heavy under 100hz is kick and bass gtr and like floor tom. everyhting else should either not be there at all or rolled off so it tapers nicely in the lows Sometimes subbass syth texture is cool but clean everything else up it will sound better and tighter and less muddy.

^^^This is one the most important but fundamental steps to getting good low end in a mix (aside from great players with great tone).

On the plugin front, I haven't found anything that can "round" out the tone of a bass guitar like the UAD-LA2a.

1st EQ your bass gtr. then place an extremely transparent comp after it. I usually shave off as much as -20db. It might sound silly but use your ears and play with the attack and release settings until you can "feel" the bass punching through. Then place the UAD-La2a on last in the chain in "limit" mode.

Don't gain compensate with the plugin. This is key. You only want to be limiting around -2 to -3db with the UAD plug. Ride the fader up until it's sitting nicely in the mix. Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

[BillSimpkins]

Mr Holmes,

I posted a mix in the "Take a Breath" mix-off. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/7205958-post8.html

Here are the bass, kick, drum buss and master buss chains (attached images). I included all four because they all contribute to the bass and kick relationship. Also, the kick was side-chaining the bass (which you can't tell from the pics). I also doubled up on the VCC's here, but that is unusual for me.

Bass: AC202, VCC, EQ cuts. Compressor(yes, that's the free one! It just worked best on this song), EQ boosts, sidechain compressor from kick.
Kick: AC202, VCC, EQ cuts, Compressor, VCC, EQ boosts.
Drum Buss: VCC, Compressor(with parallel and saturation), EQ
Master Buss: VCC Master, Compressor, tape saturation.

(edit, I attached another picture because the kick EQ cuts got cut off, also attached the bass and drums part of the mixer window)

[Kiwi]

If it's a "3D" thing you are missing from your mix - what are you using to create a stereo mix down there?

I know bass & kick tend to be fairly dry, but sometimes just mono dead centre is boring.

Synth basses are quite likely to be processed in stereo. Many classic tracks have used double bass tracks, or perhaps a chorus or Dimension, or doubling with synth.

Sometimes a little reverb or delay works.

Very small amounts of ear candy go a very long way on the low end.

[DannyMac]

MONITORING MONITORING MONITORING MONITORING MONITORING - only way to sort what is going on - then sculpt

[Mite]

yep ..... cl1b and ac1/ac2 from mcdsp will do the job ass well.
re 1176/la2a those were the 2 most used compressors back in the days. and still are.
la2a plays huge part in well-known bass sound from the 70s. hit it hard - works best @ 5db of gr.
d

[sage691]

Often the problem on GS is the phenomenon entitled "the blind leading the blind".

Some great advice here, but all just standard stuff really in the engineering domain.

IMHO the secret lies almost all in the performance and how the bass player's fingers interact with the drummer's (or drum machine's) kicks.

And to get this right (assuming the talent is there, which is 99.9% of the battle) the most important thing BY FAR is accurate monitoring during the TRACKING phase !!!

No mere mortal engineer will be able to process his way out of a less than stellar performance; and great performances in the studio (that gel with the intended vibe of the song) can only occur if the MONITORING is accurate and truthful.
Otherwise, you are just wasting your time running uphill backwards.

And having a great analog console certainly helps make things alot easier to "get there".

[Mite]

Originally Posted by sage691

Often the problem on GS is the phenomenon entitled "the blind leading the blind".

Some great advice here, but all just standard stuff really in the engineering domain.

IMHO the secret lies almost all in the performance and how the bass player's fingers interact with the drummer's (or drum machine's) kicks.

And to get this right (assuming the talent is there, which is 99.9% of the battle) the most important thing BY FAR is accurate monitoring during the TRACKING phase !!!

No mere mortal engineer will be able to process his way out of a less than stellar performance; and great performances in the studio (that gel with the intended vibe of the song) can only occur if the MONITORING is accurate and truthful.
Otherwise, you are just wasting your time running uphill backwards.

And having a great analog console certainly helps make things alot easier to "get there".

and yet .... we gotta make it sound like all of the above

[Mr.HOLMES]

Thanks a lot to all who cared for the problem...many information and inspiration for me to try things different....WOW .... I just slept one night and....information....

I love to talk about those problems.
Because a house I only can build on great fundament.

I will try things on the weekend and come back to you with sound samples.

Thanks again.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Funny Cat

after it. I usually shave off as much as -20db. It might sound silly but use your ears and play with the attack and release settings until you can "feel" the bass punching through. Then place the UAD-La2a on last in the chain in "limit" mode.

Don't gain compensate with the plugin. This is key. You only want to be limiting around -2 to -3db with the UAD plug. Ride the fader up until it's sitting nicely in the mix. Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

With the first compressor you mean 20 db gain reduction?????
Isn't that a lot of reduction?

[foldback]

IMHO it really is a matter of the bass player performance being tight with the drummer.

Here is my trick for doing it: When I track bass I increase the kick drum volume (in my headphones) to an insane level so that it is extremely obvious where the kick beats are (like they're hitting me over the head), then I play the bass using only those notes where the kick is. I also try to play the bass inside the kick drum sound so that it just shades the tone of the kick drum and lets the kick be the transient.

For this technique to work you need a really tasty drummer too because his kick drum is also defining where the bass player notes can be. A great grooving drum track makes it easy to track a soulful bass track.

Best of luck with your compositions.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by foldback

IMHO it really is a matter of the bass player performance being tight with the drummer.

Here is my trick for doing it: When I track bass I increase the kick drum volume (in my headphones) to an insane level so that it is extremely obvious where the kick beats are (like they're hitting me over the head), then I play the bass using only those notes where the kick is. I also try to play the bass inside the kick drum sound so that it just shades the tone of the kick drum and lets the kick be the transient.

For this technique to work you need a really tasty drummer too because his kick drum is also defining where the bass player notes can be. A great grooving drum track makes it easy to track a soulful bass track.

Best of luck with your compositions.

I read this as well in book.
But what if the base player plays wonderful in time but many lines hit the off beats... ploy-rhythem. Sometimes he hits the full beats.

In this theory this would mean I cant get nice base range.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I read this as well in book.
But what if the base player plays wonderful in time but many lines hit the off beats... ploy-rhythem. Sometimes he hits the full beats.

In this theory this would mean I cant get nice base range.

The bass player may be skillful, but if his part muddies up the arrangement, it's not going to work. Composing for an ensemble is always different than composing for solo instrument. Paul McCartney's bass lines are exceptional because he added them to the recording last, so they could stand out without conflict. They were always out of the way of everything else that happened musically.

[erikdrink]

EQ!

[SDB_12]

Try this, just as an experiment:

Pull up a mix to play with.

Dislaimer: This is in no way a guide to an actual mix or suggestions. It's a fun experiment to help you learn! I do it from time to time, actually just last night I was playing with it again.

First, no compression/effects yet. Just pan, level, and eq.

Note: Be extreme with boosts/cuts. All amounts of boosts/cuts I'm about to mention are highly dependent on the source, but be on the side of extreme for this experiment.

Kick EQ:
*Boost 60hz until you get the thump you want
*Cut at 150hz w/ wide Q until all mud/muck is gone. Don't be scared. Take it all the way out if you have too.
*Cut at 700hz until honk/clonk is gone. Again, don't be scared
*Boost up top at 10khz...be extreme (+5-8dB)

Bass EQ:
*Roll off up to 100hz, not too steep, until bass cleans up and sits on kick.
*Boost at 150hz w/ wide Q. Let bass shine from 100-300hz.
*Big cut at 300-600hz. Be extreme (-6 to -9dB)
*Boost 700-800hz until bass is angry
*Boost at 3-4.5k...find the snap, and let it sing
*Go back and maybe boost at 90hz or so a little if it's too thin. Be careful not to muddy things up though.

All other instruments: Roll off to the point that there is no mud or extreme lows in the source. Try rolling off all the way up to 200-400hz if necessary.

Electric Guitar EQ:
*Roll off to 300hz until you clearly hear the guitars STOP interfering with the bass. They should sit on top.
*Cut around 700-800hz (where you boosted the bass) until the bass really pops out, but the guitars still sound like guitars.
*Boost around 2.5khz w/ med. Q to add some bite.
*Boost around 8khz...be extreme (+8dB or so)
*Then gradually roll off highs starting about 6khz until it's smooth.

These are super extreme settings (maybe) but I can guarantee it will be fun and you will learn. As you can see, the goal is to sculpt a place for each instrument. The kick will occupy under 100hz. The bass is going to live between 100-250ish or 300hz. Guitars will get their body from 300-600hz...then cut out for the bass to poke through again at 700-800hz. Guitars will get some bit at 2.5khz...bass at 3.5khz, kick up top at 10khz. Extreme cuts/boosts can help really hear them in their own space. Then fine tune later.

Again, I'm not saying this is what you do for your actual mix, or all mixes, etc. It's a fun experiment. I can vouch that I did this just last night for fun on a modern Christian rock song. Within 25 minutes, I had a clean rough mix going through and treating each channel similar to the above mentioned. This is a good way to allow certain elements in a mix to occupy their own space without hardly any masking or mud. From there, you're going to have to go back through and use your ears to make sure things are working and aren't sounding too sculpt (unless you like that). It's all about the fine tuning from this point, but you should have a much cleaner palate to work from...and it's a fun way to hear and learn.

[taherbert]

I can't claim to be a mix engineer on par with Gary Adante or Robert Arbiter (did that Stevie Wonder record), but here's a couple of things that we do that helps us out a lot when getting Kick and Bass to sit right.

1) Editing for Groove: Sometimes if the instruments don't feel like they're playing together, they're too close to one another. Moving the bass transients a little after or before the kick transients with Logic flex time can help drive the song and let the attacks of the two instruments become complimentary rather than competing. It's something you got to listen for with your gut, though, not your ears, and certainly not your eyes.

2) Compression on the Bass and Kick: the correct compression settings are crucial. I usually prefer to use a medium to slow attack on Bass to let the note definition be there before the compression kicks in. Dialing in compression IMO is about 90% getting the attack and release correct.

3) EQ: As others have said, letting the Bass and Kick occupy slightly different ranges lets them both blend together and not compete. I really like passive Pultec-style EQs for doing lows. The UAD Pultec plug-in is good if you have it. Also the Sonimus SonEQ plug-in (free BTW) has been our secret weapon on the low end, especially bass, for it's pultec-ey low band, plus dialable mid-boost and drive control. It's like it was made for bass.

4) Outboard summing/hardware bouncing: I'm going to get some eye rolls with this one from die-hard ITB'ers, but when we started doing OTB mixes or bounces of bass and kick drum through an API560, it opened up what seems like a whole extra octave of sub-lows that we weren't getting ITB and helped things gel together so much easier. We've also been running stems of Kick and snare through a Helios Type 69, and blending that stem back in with our drum sub-group and it's just insane. I don't know what kind of The Who/Pink Floyd mojo is in that box, but it's there.