Low end drives me crazy!!-help???ideas???

[Bassmankr]

Agree with others here that a lot of the problem is the drummer and bass player stepping on each other instead of working as a unit. Additionally modern kick tones and bass tones have much more sustain than 1970's productions so more stepping on each other there. A distant factor but still a factor is that recording rooms are more live than in the 70's so with room sound comes more sustain, comes more stepping on each other. So lets look at what you can do on your end. 1). You can talk to the drummer and bass player and explain what is going on. The bass player can adjust his playing and settings so that on busy songs there is less sustain (good players just do this instinctively). The drummer can simplifly his kick part to only base groove and a few accent hit points. 2). When you set up mics if you are micing the bass amp, set up the mic farther away (at least 6 feet min) this will allow some rolloff of sustain (if his amp is not set on 11) and allow bloom. With the kick, see if the drummer will allow you to remove the outside head and pad the inside beater head with a pillow/ blanket which will kill off sustain/ring (if he doesn't you can still pad that head on the outside of the kick drum next to the beater with some creativity but you will still have the extra sustain of the shell and outside head). 3). Using comps (as a channel insert for the kick and bass only), how you setup the comp can increase or decrease sustain, study operation of the Transient Designer as these effects are exagerated with that unit. 4). Mixing stage, if the drums and bass are still stepping on each other fire up a Ducker, pick the kick or bass as most important of the two to come through in the mix (given my user name which one do you think I'm going to recomend). By the way when you are building your mix don't solo the kick and bass to make adjustments, make your adjustments while both are playing together. Speaking of trying to get a Stevie Wonder mix, there is a multitrack of the song Superstition out there on the net. Grab it and solo the kick and then the bass tracks for study. Concentrate on their sustain and envelope, now compare it to your tracks. Something to shoot for with your experimentation as neither will sound very good by themselves but work when together.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by taherbert

I can't claim to be a mix engineer on par with Gary Adante or Robert Arbiter (did that Stevie Wonder record), but here's a couple of things that we do that helps us out a lot when getting Kick and Bass to sit right.

1) Editing for Groove: Sometimes if the instruments don't feel like they're playing together, they're too close to one another. Moving the bass transients a little after or before the kick transients with Logic flex time can help drive the song and let the attacks of the two instruments become complimentary rather than competing. It's something you got to listen for with your gut, though, not your ears, and certainly not your eyes.

2) Compression on the Bass and Kick: the correct compression settings are crucial. I usually prefer to use a medium to slow attack on Bass to let the note definition be there before the compression kicks in. Dialing in compression IMO is about 90% getting the attack and release correct.

3) EQ: As others have said, letting the Bass and Kick occupy slightly different ranges lets them both blend together and not compete. I really like passive Pultec-style EQs for doing lows. The UAD Pultec plug-in is good if you have it. Also the Sonimus SonEQ plug-in (free BTW) has been our secret weapon on the low end, especially bass, for it's pultec-ey low band, plus dialable mid-boost and drive control. It's like it was made for bass.

4) Outboard summing/hardware bouncing: I'm going to get some eye rolls with this one from die-hard ITB'ers, but when we started doing OTB mixes or bounces of bass and kick drum through an API560, it opened up what seems like a whole extra octave of sub-lows that we weren't getting ITB and helped things gel together so much easier. We've also been running stems of Kick and snare through a Helios Type 69, and blending that stem back in with our drum sub-group and it's just insane. I don't know what kind of The Who/Pink Floyd mojo is in that box, but it's there.

Wait I just have to lift up the helios 69 which where standing this morning in the lobby of my house- a paper hanging on it- take off if you have a use for it----

I use a small hybrid setup console more low end A+H ZED 14
Compression an SSL G Bus Clone.
Saturation an SPL Charisma.
A 1073 clone where I sometimes send some stuff thorough and record it back to the DAW if I was not able to track with it.

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Wait I just have to lift up the helios 69 which where standing this morning in the lobby of my house- a paper hanging on it- take off if you have a use for it----

Well, hey, if you don't have a use for it, you could always sent it to me!

We'd love a second one!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by taherbert

Well, hey, if you don't have a use for it, you could always sent it to me!

We'd love a second one!

I just talked to fed ex they pick it up and -> via overnight express to you - alright?

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

T
2.Example
Listening to Stevie Wonder - Living for the city-

The Kick has nearly no transient and is more felt than heart but is till 3D in the whole mix. It melts together with the synth base..... WOW.

I hear the kick clearly, in spite of the fact that there seems to be no artificially enhanced transients. Is it possible you're listening in a muddy acoustic environment?

There are any number of ways to balance the low end correctly, but if you can't hear it then it's guesswork at best.

-R

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I hear the kick clearly, in spite of the fact that there seems to be no artificially enhanced transients. Is it possible you're listening in a muddy acoustic environment?

There are any number of ways to balance the low end correctly, but if you can't hear it then it's guesswork at best.

-R

WOW for me comparing to kicks of today there is no big transient- even under my Headphones AKG K 701 its more a UMPH instead of hard hit....it just goes in time with the base player....

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

WOW for me comparing to kicks of today there is no big transient- even under my Headphones AKG K 701 its more a UMPH instead of hard hit....it just goes in time with the base player....

Kicks today have a ton of head slap and much more scooped out mids than I hear in older records. The Stevie song you referenced has almost no head slap on the Kick and a lot of low mids compared to todays kick. The bass (or synth bass) also sounds like it has some kind of auto-wah thing going on and not a lot of attack. The low end also has a lot of tapey vibe to it, I don't know if they were running at 15 or 30 ips when this was made, but there's definitely that head bump and a drop off in sub-lows that tape does to the low end. That could explain why that UAD ATR-102 plug-in gets close to the sound you're after. We use tape and digital in our studio and they do very different things to the low end.

Compare this sound: Stevie Wonder - Living for the City - YouTube

with this very modern kick and bass sound: Arctic Monkeys - D is for Dangerous - YouTube

and you will see what I mean.

[WunderBro Flo]

there is no shortcut or quick fix, no advice where to boost, where to cut and how to treat the transient or the sustain. Simply because it DEPENDS on the source sound and the sound that you are aiming for. What you need is the knowledge and experience to know what the sound is lacking compared to what you aim for and then choose the right tools that get you there. Learn the differences between adding frequencies that dont exist yet as opposed to EQing that frequency area. Tools like saturation, octavers, Subbassgenerators, RBass, Maxbass are essential. Learn to hear the kick as transient and body and the tools to manipulate them with transient designers, compressors and gates. Learn which f areas in the kick and bass relate to your perception as boom, mud, fullness, definition etc so you can make a judgement before you even reach for a tool - because that is the ultimate goal. Right now it seems that you do no know what's wrong. You will never be able to fix something if you have not acquired the skills to identify the problem.
And of course, to do all this you need capable monitors and room acoustics, it is hard to learn painting in a room filled with darkness.
Good luck!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Why some folks here bash my room without being the last months here where we (me and someone who knows how to treat rooms) where building it up from scratch? Now I start to wonder about the base range in my old mixes and I want to learn the tools for it and I get such an answer like above....WOW

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by taherbert

Kicks today have a ton of head slap and much more scooped out mids than I hear in older records. The Stevie song you referenced has almost no head slap on the Kick and a lot of low mids compared to todays kick. The bass (or synth bass) also sounds like it has some kind of auto-wah thing going on and not a lot of attack. The low end also has a lot of tapey vibe to it, I don't know if they were running at 15 or 30 ips when this was made, but there's definitely that head bump and a drop off in sub-lows that tape does to the low end. That could explain why that UAD ATR-102 plug-in gets close to the sound you're after. We use tape and digital in our studio and they do very different things to the low end.

Compare this sound: Stevie Wonder - Living for the City - YouTube

with this very modern kick and bass sound: Arctic Monkeys - D is for Dangerous - YouTube

and you will see what I mean.

Yup-
Interesting, but if you know both tape and digital.
My impression with UAD Ampex thing was (depending on the setting) that it glues base and kick together by just using it- is this common for tape or was it just a lucky situation when i demoed it?

[Mr.HOLMES]

I think my new try isn't anything better.
Here is short sample base and kick with some keys....

I tried many of your ideas.....

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

Yup-
Interesting, but if you know both tape and digital.
My impression with UAD Ampex thing was (depending on the setting) that it glues base and kick together by just using it- is this common for tape or was it just a lucky situation when i demoed it?

Well, tape in the low end when pushed acts like sort of soft limiting and the EQ curves on most tape machines usually have a boost in the low followed by a steep drop off below a certain frequency, sort of like a low pass resonant filter. Here's some examples, I think the ATR-102 is on there: Response Curves of Analog Recorders

You could try to do similar things without the plug-in if you can't afford the UAD.

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I think my new try isn't anything better.
Here is short sample base and kick with some keys....

I tried many of your ideas.....

The beat where they happen at the same time sound pretty glued to me. What exactly are you not happy with? The Bass sound has a lot of attack and the kick doesn't, whereas the Stevie Wonder bass track has more rolled off high mids and less attack.

[thechrisl]

For a purely gear based answer I hear good things about the Little Labs (and now UAD) VOG. Does magic things to bass they say...

[lllubi]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I think my new try isn't anything better.
Here is short sample base and kick with some keys....

I tried many of your ideas.....

sounds like you cant decide which of the transients to let win the groove

[DeuceMix]

this thread is really useful.

[taherbert]

Originally Posted by lllubi

sounds like you cant decide which of the transients to let win the groove

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. When I ponder this issue more in depth, I recall that there are some songs where I have a hard time distinguishing the kick from the bass because the attack, decay, and EQ ranges are very similar between the two. In those songs it seems like when the kick drum hits it's a bass note, and vice versa. Mr. Holmes, is that the effect you're looking for?

[Arthur Stone]

Idea to try (for dimensionality)...Haas delay...or build a Tonto synth

[ChubbsMaloney]

This is certainly something the Pros struggle with as well...and I thhink there are many different angles given different circumstances, but a couple of fun things to try would be...

Putting either or both in a space...yes really...put some reverb on the bass...try it...you probably don;t want to soak it and should keep it short, but you may be surprised.

Try mixing the drums and bass through the same compressor on a buss...typically called Drums/Bass buss

Don't rule out the power of good and extremly drastic limiting when it comes to kik'bass

Good luck!

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by taherbert

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. When I ponder this issue more in depth, I recall that there are some songs where I have a hard time distinguishing the kick from the bass because the attack, decay, and EQ ranges are very similar between the two. In those songs it seems like when the kick drum hits it's a bass note, and vice versa. Mr. Holmes, is that the effect you're looking for?

100% right.
I dont like if its separated to much.

I call it mud of the base range.
If I listen to modern stuff the kick has that KLICK thing and I can with ease separate both bass/kick in my brain.

I want to have some kind of mud without overcooking the low end.

Sorry I am not a native speaker but I hope you get it?

[sage691]

I think some of you people complicate this issue too much.

If the performances are good and tracked thru good gear on the front end, just insert a la2a (limit mode, gain a U and GR at -10 below U) on the bass and an 1176 on the kick and call it a day !!!

If it doesn't kick you in the balls after this, then it's likely the performances that are off the mark. This is why it is imperative for the performers to hear this while they are tracking.

The sound of an la2a inserted on the POST channel (on a console) whilst tracking will DRAMATICALLY alter how the bass player uses his fingers.

The difference in tone/punch/fatness/consistency between the slightest changes in finger attack are MUCH MORE DRAMATIC than almost any type of processing an engineer can attempt in the post tracking phase.

Hence again, the advantage that great monitoring and having all the post-processing engaged whilst tracking brings to the equation. This is IMHO the reason why a true zero latency platform (analog console with inserts) is still so incredibly important.

But it seems 99.9% of the peeps around here will continue trying to run uphill backwards with cement boots on.

[Funny Cat]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

With the first compressor you mean 20 db gain reduction?????
Isn't that a lot of reduction?

I know, I know...it seems absurd but trust me it works. I was listening to Pensado's Place the other day and I forget which AE he was interviewing? Anyway, the AE said that he turns off his monitors and dims the lights when he's mixing. He said sometimes he'll be boosting with EQ until it sounds good and then when he turns on the screen to see his moves he'll see that he boosted +10db!

A picture is worth a thousand words so I guess a soundclip is worth about 5 or 6, eh? Attached is a little mix I did for a mixoff when I had some downtime a couple of weeks ago. I used 20db (or more) of gain reduction on the 1st plugin and then shaved about 3db-5db more with the UAD-La2a.

I mentioned this very briefly in my initial post and so did Sage691 (as well as a couple of other posters) but as Sage put it, about 99% of the synergy between drum and bass is in the playing. The arrangement makes a huge difference too.

I listened to your test clip and the first thing I noticed is that the bass is poking out waaay too much. judicious compression will tame this for you.

Also, I might get flamed for this but here goes..... notching out space in the bass drum/kick drum to fit them "like a puzzle" is a relatively modern technique. I only mention this b/c you were going after that Stevie Wonder sound. In the old days they did this with arrangement...not EQ! Yes, you should decide which one will carry the lowest-low-end but aside from that, BD and bass should be able to live together and both be heard with no issues if you've played and captured the source correctly.

[Funny Cat]

Originally Posted by sage691

I think some of you people complicate this issue too much.

If the performances are good and tracked thru good gear on the front end, just insert a la2a (limit mode, gain a U and GR at -10 below U) on the bass and an 1176 on the kick and call it a day !!!.......SNIP, SNIP...

The difference in tone/punch/fatness/consistency between the slightest changes in finger attack are MUCH MORE DRAMATIC than almost any type of processing an engineer can attempt in the post tracking phase...SNIP, SNIP, SNIP



But it seems 99.9% of the peeps around here will continue trying to run uphill backwards with cement boots on.

Hey Sage, while I agree with you completely, your post does not help the OP in any way (unfortunately). Why? 'Cause most AE's have absolutely NO CONTROL on the skill level/technique/experience of the artists we are recording. Sometimes I get well played and recorded tracks to mix and other times it's just pure booboo. I still gotta "engineer" though...

That's when I need to have an assortment of tricks that I know will work (to a certain degree). I'm a bass player at heart so I know exactly what you're talking about but....there are little things you can do to improve the synergy between BD and bass (aside from grabbing the bloody instrument from the player mid-session) and overdubbing the part for him/her.

P.S. the OP already said he had his room and monitors worked out in several posts, so I think you're being just a tad too harsh.

[Funny Cat]

Hey Holmes:


Here is a tune I produced, tracked and mixed using the same compression techniques I mentioned earlier. I played the bass and most of the keys on this production.

This was for a promotion with an artist for Bob Marley day this past year. I used the drum multitracks from the actual Wailer's session that are floating around the web. I specifically went for a more "warm/old school" sound when mixing so bare mind, it has a little bit of that "good" mud you were referring to.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

WOW for me comparing to kicks of today there is no big transient- even under my Headphones AKG K 701 its more a UMPH instead of hard hit....it just goes in time with the base player....

Yes, we are in agreement. My point was that in spite of that the kick is clearly discernible and its impact is singularly felt.

And I wasn't bagging on your room--I have no idea what it's like. So even if it doesn't apply to you, my opinion is that a muddy room (and one may not know it's muddy) is the largest impediment to getting proper low end balance. None of the techniques suggested here are useful if you can't hear what you're doing.

-R

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by Funny Cat

Hey Holmes:


Here is a tune I produced, tracked and mixed using the same compression techniques I mentioned earlier. I played the bass and most of the keys on this production.

This was for a promotion with an artist for Bob Marley day this past year. I used the drum multitracks from the actual Wailer's session that are floating around the web. I specifically went for a more "warm/old school" sound when mixing so bare mind, it has a little bit of that "good" mud you were referring to.

Woww, thanks for the turn on - fabulous woman, great produciton. By the way, it sounds a LOT better if you click through to Utube for the video...

I learned a lot form this thread, got a great free plugin, and heard some amazing music. Thanks everyone!

And I never understood why some EQs have both boost and atten controls - the Sonimus manual links to a video that explains it really well, thanks for that too. Now if they only had RTAS version...

Most learning I have ever had in one hour on GS!

Lou

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Yes, we are in agreement. My point was that in spite of that the kick is clearly discernible and its impact is singularly felt.

And I wasn't bagging on your room--I have no idea what it's like. So even if it doesn't apply to you, my opinion is that a muddy room (and one may not know it's muddy) is the largest impediment to getting proper low end balance. None of the techniques suggested here are useful if you can't hear what you're doing.

-R

Meh I am not telling you the room I mix in is perfect.
The measurements we did in the treatment process told us its not too bad.
In December we will tame down a few more 27 Hz and 50 Hz with helmoltz-resonators and that should bring a more clear spot on the base. But what we have now is a fair room-tratment.

It was so hard work that I get panic thinking about moving to new place.

Beside from this a great HP can be reference for compensating the flaws of the room. I always control the base and check between room and HP AKG K 701.

And you can trust the AKG in the base range to 100%.
I have also seen professional AE checking back on cans.

@Funny cat
Thanks for your tips and ideas....
Your second track is one I would consider for checking back on good cans with a great HP Amp.
This kick is too heavy for my taste.

And you are right sometimes you are not with the arrangement nor tracking.
So I got it from a friend like it is and I have to live with it.
Thats the question in my starting point how can I make a given track working.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Hot rain wonderful track- love it!!!
Nice base and kick melts together .....love this one!!!

Did I mention that the players and the arrangement is GREAT!!!

[Fezzle]

Yeh for me a great starting point is identifying the range of each and how busy the kick and bass pattern are.. this is crucial. On a slow number like 'Since Ive been lovin you' Led Z... that Kick is tuned real low, and is slow enough to have all the guts.. to my ears theres loads of 60 Hz in there.. the bass is higher up.. If youve got a real busy drum part that usually means less lows and enough low mid for it to pop through... generally though if youve got a fundamental on one... you wanna watch out if the other is around the same area, thats where you know where to cut some.. I tend to knock out some 200 - 300 out the kick aot of the time, and it helps it sound deeper... and at the same time carving a nice pocket for the bass notes to shine through.

[saciestudio]

I'd like to recommend again that you play with the attack/release timings on your material. Like some have recommended extreme EQs and GRs, try extreme GRs and move the attack to have extreme thump or click and maybe insert a limiter after to tame it to be just right. Do it to the kick and the bass, and think about them not having the same envelope while doing it; do it to each one soloed then hear together and adjust further...for better results rinse and repeat
Them being well played is a must of course.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Many useful ideas here.
As with everything I have to train it.

I will come back with the first experience I made.

Thanks gain to all those who gave a part of their experience to this Thread.