Fulcrum Gain concept to ITB mixes

[davehall6162]

Just wondering what you guys thought about this:
The fulcrum does the summing but uses a pre of choice to apply approx 30-40 db of make up gain. Now if one were restricted to summing ITB because of lack of outputs, but had some tasty pres, would it be possible to achieve better sounding mixes by applying this gain concept. What I mean is, pulling the master in the DAW down about 30-40 db from where the mix sounds right, then re-applying this amount of gain with a nice mic pre for colour.

Has anybody tried this or have any opinions? I know that you would still miss the summing of the fulcrum, but would it be an improvement or worth doing in this case?

[heyman]

Hmm, I dont know if the Fulcrom can handle that on the front end( on the Way in) vs on the way out.. Dont see whay not...??

Best to give Ulysses at Roll music a call or drop him an email..

http://www.rollmusic.com/

[davehall6162]

Originally Posted by heyman

Hmm, I dont know if the Fulcrom can handle that on the front end( on the Way in) vs on the way out.. Dont see whay not...??

Best to give Ulysses at Roll music a call or drop him an email..

http://www.rollmusic.com/

Heyman, sorry but i think you completely missed my point, im talking applying mic-pre make up gain to an ITB mix instead of using the master fader in the DAW, for people who dont have the fulcrom.

[heyman]

Sry, my bad..

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

Heyman, sorry but i think you completely missed my point, im talking applying mic-pre make up gain to an ITB mix instead of using the master fader in the DAW, for people who dont have the fulcrom.

The Folcrom is a passive unit thats why it needs 30-40% make-up gain from a pre amp of choice ,not because doing this gives you any special type of effect outside of the colour of the pre-amp ! If you simply want to put a pre amp at the end of a ITB mix by taking two DA outs to your pre, you do not have to repeat the concept of the Folcrom , just put the Pre at the end Saturat it's Tranny or Tube til you like the sound and print back into your program and wolla

[Matt Syson]

The performance of D/A convertors is best towards the max level out and distortion rises as the level is decreased so in effect you will be throwing away some of the supposed improved quality. The noise floor of a good D/A converter is around -110dB so dropping the level sent by say 30dB will reduce sig/noise figure to around 80dB. Most analogue desks manage better than that.
Certainly try it but I am not sure what you will achieve and whether you would like it.
Matt S

[Casey]

Coming out of your stereo master at -40dB is not very friendly to your DACs. You would only be giving them about 18 bits to work with. It may sound fine and you may love the sound running through a pre, but you might be better off using a (roughly unity gain) eq or comp to provide the color you are looking for. This is very common, folks do it all the time.

Edit: Beat me to it!

[davehall6162]

Thanks for the posts so far guys!

[raal]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

What I mean is, pulling the master in the DAW down about 30-40 db from where the mix sounds right, then re-applying this amount of gain with a nice mic pre for colour.

because the folcrom needs 30-40db of gain doesn't mean you have to pull down your master fader by that amount. your pre may have enough headroom. just experiment and see what happens. i've done it and sometimes i like it, sometimes not. as casey says a nice comp or EQ (or Fatso) may do the job also.

[Faderjockey]

You can do it...I use to do it before I got the Folcrom..
Just pad down the input of the pre...instead of pulling your fader so far down..
I built a pad way back then to use...I may have pulled the fader back a hair here and there for whatever reason before I printed.

But the level drop was more from the pad then pulling the fader. It did help my mixes back then. Now I just use the Folcrom...and the funny thing is...The pres that worked great on the ITB 2buss, I don't like as much on the Folcrom 2buss. I use a TG2 most of the time now...Doing rock mixes.

[Brad McGowan]

There is a serious impedance mismatch happening when you send the output of a D/A into a mic preamp input. Mic preamps are looking to see a 150-300 ohm microphone. D/A's are looking to see a high impedance input of another line level device. It may sound cool or it may not.

You may be best off building an H-pad to give you level and impedance you need so that you can run your D/A at a reasonable output level. I built a little box using transformers instead to give me the right interface. The transformers add some additional mojo as well.

Brad

[Marjan]

When I don't have much time to make some sort of analogue summing, and I really want to do it, I run the stereo bus through two channels of my mixing desk (also taking the oportunity to add the desk's EQ and outboard compression). And I like the results... a bit more organic. If I'm doing the Mastering myself, I leave that procedure to the Mastering stage to avoid the extra AD/DA conversions.

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

The pres that worked great on the ITB 2buss, I don't like as much on the Folcrom 2buss. I use a TG2 most of the time now...Doing rock mixes.

Interesting... What other pre-amps have you tried, and what did/didn't you like when using them with the Folcrom?

[Faderjockey]

Originally Posted by Marjan

Interesting... What other pre-amps have you tried, and what did/didn't you like when using them with the Folcrom?

Well...I don't have a ton..But I did a few records with 1272's on the ITB 2buss and it sounded great..I don't use that often on the Folcrom...Maybe a slower vibe-y tune I will.

But other pres on Folcrom..They are all cool but depends on the tune or what I'm after. It's tough..Because I decide before I start a mix what I'm going to use. Then I mix into that. If I switch there is a chance it may be cooler..But most of the time it's not. So that is why I've been sticking with the TG2 alot on the rock mixes.

But Great River MP2H, Langevin DVC, 1272 all work okay...I have an old LTD-1 I love...I wish I had two to try on the Folcrom. But i love the bite the TG2 gives me.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

There is a serious impedance mismatch happening when you send the output of a D/A into a mic preamp input. Mic preamps are looking to see a 150-300 ohm microphone. D/A's are looking to see a high impedance input of another line level device. It may sound cool or it may not.

You may be best off building an H-pad to give you level and impedance you need so that you can run your D/A at a reasonable output level. I built a little box using transformers instead to give me the right interface. The transformers add some additional mojo as well.

I know he said "mic pre-amp" but I suspect he's been talking about the line inputs... are you not Dave? Otherwise you'd better be careful... You may damage your pre-amp... I suppose some mic pre-amp circuits handle the mismatch better than others.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

Well...I don't have a ton..But I did a few records with 1272's on the ITB 2buss and it sounded great..I don't use that often on the Folcrom...Maybe a slower vibe-y tune I will.

But other pres on Folcrom..They are all cool but depends on the tune or what I'm after. It's tough..Because I decide before I start a mix what I'm going to use. Then I mix into that. If I switch there is a chance it may be cooler..But most of the time it's not. So that is why I've been sticking with the TG2 alot on the rock mixes.

But Great River MP2H, Langevin DVC, 1272 all work okay...I have an old LTD-1 I love...I wish I had two to try on the Folcrom. But i love the bite the TG2 gives me.

Hmm... what's your 1272? Neve? BAE? Other?
I've only tried a mono channel of Great River during the tracking process. And judging by the awesome way it sounds, I have the feeling it would be a killer when used with the Folcrom...!
I use a 1073 with the Folcrom, which is fantastic in terms of dimension. But I have that feeling that the Great River, although not very different from the 1073, would sound more focused and make instruments a bit more "seperated" (in a good way) from each other... again, taking into account how both of them behave during traking and mixing.
That's why I asked you what 1272 you got... if it's a Neve, that would give me an idea, as it's pretty similar to the 1073.

[echorec]

Why don´t you use a line amp? If you like the sound of transformers and tubes (I do) then you could try for example the Telefunken/Siemens V74. You won´t have to lower the outputs of your converter that much and you will get something very nice back in.

[echorec]

...it would also work with a pair of original 1272s (as mentioned above) with the gain knob (or trim pot) turned down quite a bit. Or maybe a pair of 1271s, usually cheaper (and less gain) than the 1272

[Faderjockey]

No..It's a Great River MP2H the cleaner one...Not the MP2NV Neve-y one.
The 1272 thing I've used a Vintec and a buddy had a BAE one I used for a bit...It's just the whole 1272 thing on the 2 buss was a little to creamy...I needed something colored yet hairy and tighter..So far that's the TG..But I'm out of money and can't try anything else or I'll want to own that as well.

[Haolemon]

I believe Doug Fearn makes a pad which takes a stereo line level signal and converts it to a pair of mic level signals. This would, I think, accomplish what you seem to want to do.

But I'm not sure that this would be in any way the same as what the Folcrom does. You would still be summing in the box.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

No..It's a Great River MP2H the cleaner one...Not the MP2NV Neve-y one.
The 1272 thing I've used a Vintec and a buddy had a BAE one I used for a bit...It's just the whole 1272 thing on the 2 buss was a little to creamy...I needed something colored yet hairy and tighter..So far that's the TG..But I'm out of money and can't try anything else or I'll want to own that as well.

Oh...ok, I did mean the 2NV... Good to read about your experiences anyway, thanks!

[murp]

I think that the point to using the Folcrom (and other such summing devices) is to avoid the mathematics that go on inside the DAW when summing multiple channels together.

I would think that by still doing the summing inside the DAW, you're missing the point of external summing.

That said, I've never used an external summing device, so I don't know whether the hype is warranted. I also have run mixes through my API preamps from time to time, and it has imparted a certain signature on the sound. Most of the time I didn't think it added much though, since to my ear, APIs are not really preamps that "round out" or "fatten" sounds.

[Bang]

If there were no Great River 2NV, there would be no Folcrom. I loved the sound of that thing so much, and it was the reason I found Dan and then finally Justin who made the prototype Folcrom for me. The Folcrom system really rocks, two tracks on my upcoming album were done with Folcrom- one summed with Trident S20, the other Neve Portico. Its a completely different sonic flavor then the Neotek, but just as big and hifi. I'll post a bunch of stuff in the MP3 section soon for all to hear. I stupidly sold the Great River thinking that I had "that" sound covered with some other Neve like pieces I have, but its a unique sound and I miss it.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by murp

That said, I've never used an external summing device, so I don't know whether the hype is warranted. I also have run mixes through my API preamps from time to time, and it has imparted a certain signature on the sound. Most of the time I didn't think it added much though, since to my ear, APIs are not really preamps that "round out" or "fatten" sounds.

Put pads on the outputs of your API and really lay into it and crank the gain. Put it in the red. Then you'll see how fat an API gets.

Brad

[davehall6162]

Ok thanks for all the input guys.
My problem is, im restricted to 2 outs from my daw.
Namely the Apogee rosetta 200, and my pre is the portico 5012.
I know at some stage im gonna have to expand to 8 or 16 high end outs.
But heres a MAD idea in the mean time, if picked up a folcrom anyway since its not crazy expensive to just sum the left and right of the 2buss from my DAW, then use the portico for gain. Is this just a waste or could there be any audible benefit.

I know im clutching at straws here but im just sick of that digital edge to my
mixes even thought i use and sslG384 compressor on the 2buss.

Thanks,
Dave

[Jules]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

heres a MAD idea in the mean time, if picked up a folcrom anyway since its not crazy expensive to just sum the left and right of the 2buss from my DAW, then use the portico for gain. Is this just a waste or could there be any audible benefit.

Waste - yes
Audible benefit - jeeze.. perHAPS..

Buy Cransesongs Phoenix & forget external suming untill you can afford 16 outs - thats my suggestion..

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

Ok thanks for all the input guys.
My problem is, im restricted to 2 outs from my daw.
Namely the Apogee rosetta 200, and my pre is the portico 5012.
I know at some stage im gonna have to expand to 8 or 16 high end outs.
But heres a MAD idea in the mean time, if picked up a folcrom anyway since its not crazy expensive to just sum the left and right of the 2buss from my DAW, then use the portico for gain. Is this just a waste or could there be any audible benefit.

I know im clutching at straws here but im just sick of that digital edge to my
mixes even thought i use and sslG384 compressor on the 2buss.

Thanks,
Dave

I do not understand ! Does the Portico have line ins that feed the tranny ? It should be just plug and play in this case ! Apogee rosetta 200 DA out, into Line ins on Portico and you are done !???

[davehall6162]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

I do not understand ! Does the Portico have line ins that feed the tranny ? It should be just plug and play in this case ! Apogee rosetta 200 DA out, into Line ins on Portico and you are done !???

This is right, but it will be passing through the portico at roughly unity, i wanted to use 30-40db of make up gain on the portico to add extra color, so it would become my master as opposed to the master in the DAW.
But what im told is backing the master in the daw down that much to allow this wouldnt be feeding the the converters with enough bits, which makes sense.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

This is right, but it will be passing through the portico at roughly unity, i wanted to use 30-40db of make up gain on the portico to add extra color, so it would become my master as opposed to the master in the DAW.
But what im told is backing the master in the daw down that much to allow this wouldnt be feeding the the converters with enough bits, which makes sense.

Honestly dave , the output of you Rosetta 200 should be plenty to saturate your input on the portico ! The folcrom has no atenuation on it thus NEEDS the pre amp to make that up ! The Dangerous 2 bus has a gain stage dedicated to the 2 bus thus needs no gain make-up !

Just take your output of the Rosetta 200 into the line in on the Portico and report your results

Best of luck

[davehall6162]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Honestly dave , the output of you Rosetta 200 should be plenty to saturate your input on the portico ! The folcrom has no atenuation on it thus NEEDS the pre amp to make that up ! The Dangerous 2 bus has a gain stage dedicated to the 2 bus thus needs no gain make-up !

Just take your output of the Rosetta 200 into the line in on the Portico and report your results

Best of luck

Yes, this is what ive been doing, and while it certainly doesnt take anything away, I find it hard to hear any noticeable difference between doing this and just bypassing the portico. Thats why I thought id have to drive the portico with more gain the hear better results.

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by davehall6162

But heres a MAD idea in the mean time, if picked up a folcrom anyway since its not crazy expensive to just sum the left and right of the 2buss from my DAW, then use the portico for gain. Is this just a waste or could there be any audible benefit.
Dave

Dave, if you sum the left and right of your 2-bus it becomes a 1-bus, ie mono.

what i think you are talking about is not in fact summing anything but just using the folcromm as a 2 channel line-level attenuator.

what you want is an a-designs atty; a high quality stereo variable attenuator. this will let you lower the level of your stereo mix outputs before your preamp of choice thus allowing you to drive the pre as much as you like. the variable bit is what would make this interesting.

regards,

richie.