Seriously, Who can do real drums without real drums

[pingu]

Can drums be done with BFD and DKFH and sound realistic and if so how are you guys doing them.

Are you playing them in with midi, or note by note with a mouse.


Cheers

[John The Cut]

Yea, its possible - you just have to know the software and know about how a drummer plays and also how to program it!

I use a combination of playing in a basic beat with the keys and then going in and editing it with the mouse. Things like adding grace notes, flams and other nuances of performance all help. I also get crazy with velocities - especially of the hi hats - THIS is the single most important part of drum programming imo.

A drummer never hits every hit with the same force - nor does he hit the same part of the drum with every hit. So good samples that have a lot of variation over many velocities are essential - luckily BFD and DFHS do this very well.

Another thing for live drums is to remember how many appendages a drummer has.. you cant play the hi hats, cymbals and do a drum fill at the same time .. for example.

What I like about BFD is that I can apply any processing that is needed to turn the raw drums into any style of rock or pop production. The results, imo - are pretty convincing and a lot less hassle than booking studio time and getting a perfect take with the live drums.

[Toad]

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

[stag]

An average drummer can program fairly easy drums, a good keyboard player can play them on the keyboard some even do an awesome job.

I use the SX drum map an Musiclab Performance Drum Tools (only PC) both as VSTi or MFX to lay down the tracks.
Drumcore 2, soon to be released promises to be amazing and i plan to buy it as soon as it´s available.

Try the demo, is fully functional for 15 days.
I prefer HALion 2 or Kontak 2 to get the sounds over BFD or DKFH but i guess it´s because i´m more used to them.

[cajonezzz]

Originally Posted by Toad

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

I dunno man... I've been fooled pretty well by both dkfh and bfd done with a good programmer / Drummer.

I'll try and find a tune to post.

it sure ain't like the old days.

[Rodney Gene]

I bought BFD to try to get the drum thing going for my new album but the best I could eek out was demo quality. I sold it here to a fellow slut.

It sounds pretty good overall and for demos it is excellent...but I just couldn't get it to really work or truly sound convincing. At least not for my style.

Here is a small effort with BFD and a song idea I had been messing with...demo scratch ideas. But you can catch a vibe.

Now...I am using no drums except a kick drum and real percussion I have here at the studio... limited but at least I get that 'organic-ness' I am after.

Much Respect,

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by Toad

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

Nonsense. The main reason programmed drums stick out from real drums is the real drums are recorded so poorly many times. Thick boxy room sound with a touch of cardboard is the order of the day for half the stuff you hear.

There is no way in hell you would be able pick out a programmed drum track done someone who does it for a living(adding proper room sound, ghost notes, hit variations). I dont need to prove it to you because I have already heard from drummers or engineers who know what they are talking about.

besides we dont need another test here where people make huge claims but are never right when the files are uploaded.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Toad

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

Well, I think it depends on who "you" in your sentence is, as well as a lot of other factors.

I've been programming drum machines for about a quarter century and I've been fooled in the past at times.

But the thing is, if you've got sharp ears, you start learning the sound of various drum machines and sample sets -- not to mention the little giveaways.


But for the average listener?

Not too many of them care one way or the other. It either moves them or it doesn't. And I think from the popularity of music with starkly artificial and even awkward beats, I think it's clear that many people are moved by parts a "real" drummer in the past would never have played. (I do hear an increasing number of drummers who allow themselves to be directly influenced by 'artificial' beats and rhythms drummers would have previously rejected.)


I'll tell you one thing though -- as SOON as I got BFD, I started recognizing its use in OP's recordings, stuff on the radio, etc. There's a sound (particularly in the basic sample set) to the basic recordings that leaves a signature stamp on it.

If I had it to do over again, I'd wait until they had some kits that were recorded in a nice dry studios... I've gotten really tired of the sound of the room in the 'included' BFD samples.

Great idea, though, and I still like using it. But I was definitely disappointed with and have grown increasingly tired of those kits. Honest to gosh, I have tunes I did with 16 bit free Soundfont drum kits that I like better, overall.

And that has NOT made me want to go out and shell another THREE HUNDRED ****ING DOLLARS on the add-ons hoping that their recording philosophy has chaged.

[trock]

Ah the eternal qwest for real drums

i have gone thru drum machines, loops, etc etc etc

now i use Drums on Demand

www.drumsondemand.com

and to give you a sample you can go to my website

all the music on it is done with DOD

i can write a song in 20 minutes that sounds killer.

check em out, it will be the best 75 bucks you ever spend

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by trock

Ah the eternal qwest for real drums

i have gone thru drum machines, loops, etc etc etc

now i use Drums on Demand

www.drumsondemand.com

and to give you a sample you can go to my website

all the music on it is done with DOD

i can write a song in 20 minutes that sounds killer.

check em out, it will be the best 75 bucks you ever spend

Definitley another alternative for songwriting.... thanks for the link!

Although I don't know too many people who like working with pre-mixed loops and I personally don't like being stuck with someone else's drum production ...but... I can see how it would be beneficial as writing tool.

For me it is the same as BFD or DHFH, hard to see getting past anything but the demo stage with these. And with BFD and DKFH you get the opportunity to mix tracks and choose bass drums, snares, etc. Which is cool.

There just isn't anything like a real live drummer playing for the song.

Much Respect,

[Improv]

I agree nothing even comes close to beating a real drummer on a real kit (even a poorly recorded one!). But I still have fun playing drums on the keyboard. Been doing it all my life... well, at least ever since waiting for 14.4k downloads... gotta do something to keep the fingers busy. So I'd play along to songs and just basically jam. Now the drum libraries are sounding so good, it's more fun then ever.

This is a clip of freestyle playing, no edits or quantizing, played on a keyboard using drumkit from hell.

"one, two, tree, fouw... one, two, tree, fouw!...Dis is wock n woll.... let's play. "

[Improv]

for those unfamiliar with my mentor...

[CustomDigi]

Dude, that is funny stuff. Apparently someone forgot to tell him to turn "Anti-machine gun mode" on...Other than that, he tore it up a lot better than I thought he was going to...

-Matt

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Improv

for those unfamiliar with my mentor...

OK. I got the kick is on the "first" beat. But what's the "turd" beat?

Sorry. Couldn't resist!!

[norman_nomad]

This statement might work against me because I actually sell drum sample kits, but I don't think samples are going to truly sound like a real drummer in a room - open mics - no processing.

Putting all drum programming wizards aside, the simple fact is that: Drum samples are played one at a time and captured one at a time by the microphones. In a live session with an actual drummer, the mics will be capturing the combination of multiple hits which effects how the room phases, swells and compresses when multiple hits are played.
For this reason, and this reason alone, drum samples can't do what a real drummer does in a room. IMHO, these subtle identifiers are very important to that "real drummer in a room" sound. The sum of the parts do not equal the whole I'm afraid.

Now... with that said. I DO think drum samples can sound like most modern sounding productions which are highly processed, sample replaced, and all together morphed into sounding completely surreal.

Modern rock/pop/alternative/country is so highly processed that I do believe you could fool most people (even pro mixers) into believing DFH or BFD, or even my samples were performed by a real drummer. Knowing how to execute a performance like a real drummer is key - as is knowing how to process them (not all drum sample kits sound "mixed" out of the box).

For the most part, I think drum sample kits are a great aid to those in the song writing process, the mixing process, or those without the funds to record a good drummer at a good studio (a lot of beginning musicians - me included!).

And who can hate on keyboard drumming? It's just so cool!

[Toad]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Well, I think it depends on who "you" in your sentence is, as well as a lot of other factors.

I've been programming drum machines for about a quarter century and I've been fooled in the past at times.

But the thing is, if you've got sharp ears, you start learning the sound of various drum machines and sample sets -- not to mention the little giveaways.


But for the average listener?

Not too many of them care one way or the other. It either moves them or it doesn't. And I think from the popularity of music with starkly artificial and even awkward beats, I think it's clear that many people are moved by parts a "real" drummer in the past would never have played. (I do hear an increasing number of drummers who allow themselves to be directly influenced by 'artificial' beats and rhythms drummers would have previously rejected.)


I'll tell you one thing though -- as SOON as I got BFD, I started recognizing its use in OP's recordings, stuff on the radio, etc. There's a sound (particularly in the basic sample set) to the basic recordings that leaves a signature stamp on it.

If I had it to do over again, I'd wait until they had some kits that were recorded in a nice dry studios... I've gotten really tired of the sound of the room in the 'included' BFD samples.

Great idea, though, and I still like using it. But I was definitely disappointed with and have grown increasingly tired of those kits. Honest to gosh, I have tunes I did with 16 bit free Soundfont drum kits that I like better, overall.

And that has NOT made me want to go out and shell another THREE HUNDRED ****ING DOLLARS on the add-ons hoping that their recording philosophy has chaged.

The "little giveaways" factor is exactly what I'm talking about!
Room sound, Cymbals, Ghost notes (convincing) Etc. thumbsup

[pingu]

Thanks guys.

I goin to go with a real drummer now.

[C Heat]

Originally Posted by pingu

Thanks guys.

I goin to go with a real drummer now.

Thought you were sold on BFD or DFH!

[pingu]

Originally Posted by C Heat

Thought you were sold on BFD or DFH!

Nah, its just so time consuming.

Im already doing the Bass and 6 string guitars and im in charge of the mixing and mastering.

Its too much to try and piss around with these programmes, and no matter what to me it doesnt sound 100% real, especially the high hats and ride cymbals. im going to get the real thing.

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by pingu

Nah, its just so time consuming.

Im already doing the Bass and 6 string guitars and im in charge of the mixing and mastering.

Its too much to try and piss around with these programmes, and no matter what to me it doesnt sound 100% real, especially the high hats and ride cymbals. im going to get the real thing.

good move..I hate programmed drums observe my avatar

[thejook]

Yeah, it's gonna sound great with great programming, but if you have the option of a good drummer, *ALWAYS* better. I would pick BFD over 'no drummer', but getting a great performance is a lot of fun to work with and can inspire the rest of the song a lot better than something that's programmed. I'm a drummer, so my only problem is paying a lot to get into a good studio with tape & a Neve.

[KBOY]

Originally Posted by Toad

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

Not true. I'm in the middle of finishing up a project with someone that I ended up playing the drums on using a V-drum kit and Bfd for the drums and DKFH for the cymbals. I ended up rerecording the hihats for real with a full hit miked and it sounds bomb! Yes the drums tend to hit the same samples alot, but no more and if not a hell of a lot less than some of the major releases that have sample replaced drums. A real drum performance with the same snare hit 50 times in a row.

The key was re recording the hihats live. Using BFD for only the drums (cymbals suck) and using DKFH for the cymbals (Drums don't sound right to me.)

[theblue1]

I think I was kind of in a bad mood back there when I made my previous post.

I like BFD probably more than it sounds like in my post.

I just wish they had given us a better range of studio sound in the basic release. I don't mind paying a bit extra for extra sounds -- but to have to pay almost as much as the original package borders on abusive, seems to me.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by KBOY

Not true. I'm in the middle of finishing up a project with someone that I ended up playing the drums on using a V-drum kit and Bfd for the drums and DKFH for the cymbals. I ended up rerecording the hihats for real with a full hit miked and it sounds bomb! Yes the drums tend to hit the same samples alot, but no more and if not a hell of a lot less than some of the major releases that have sample replaced drums. A real drum performance with the same snare hit 50 times in a row.

The key was re recording the hihats live. Using BFD for only the drums (cymbals suck) and using DKFH for the cymbals (Drums don't sound right to me.)

At that point, building a nice drum room doesn't sound like such a big undertaking!

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by Toad

You'll always be able to tell real drums (drummer) from a non-drummer
programing a performance.

benard purdie got fooled...

by ahmir from the roots...

(he thought he was listening to a machine...)

[Improv]

Originally Posted by soultrane

benard purdie got fooled...

by ahmir from the roots...

(he thought he was listening to a machine...)

lol

[Toad]

Originally Posted by KBOY

Not true. I'm in the middle of finishing up a project with someone that I ended up playing the drums on using a V-drum kit and Bfd for the drums and DKFH for the cymbals. I ended up rerecording the hihats for real with a full hit miked and it sounds bomb! Yes the drums tend to hit the same samples alot, but no more and if not a hell of a lot less than some of the major releases that have sample replaced drums. A real drum performance with the same snare hit 50 times in a row.

The key was re recording the hihats live. Using BFD for only the drums (cymbals suck) and using DKFH for the cymbals (Drums don't sound right to me.)

I wouldn't consider this programming.

[5down1up]

programed drums are programed drums ...
played drums are played drums ...

better ? i like em both !

[papiel]

A few years ago I was really into making drum programming sound like it's real. I manage to fool a few people (including the mastering guy who asked "who's the drummer"), but it doesn't worth the effort. It takes days (not to say weeks), to program while a drummer can make it in no time.

[adamcal]

"this is rock and roll"

always gets a laugh.