Login / Register
 
Recording cymbals separately?
New Reply
Subscribe
rickyeatworld
Thread Starter
#1
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #1
Gear interested
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12

Thread Starter
rickyeatworld is offline
Recording cymbals separately?

Does anyone ever record drums by doing the cymbals seperately from the toms/kick/snare (two different takes essentially) If you have experience, what's your conclusion? What did you like? what were some problems you encountered? Would you do it again, if so, what would you do differently?


If I do this, I want the drummer to be able to bang on something (where the cymbals would be) to keep his groove and whatever going. I'm thinking maybe muting the cymbals completely? What are some good ways to mute cymbals, or at least enough so that gating them will be no problem whatsoever? Thanks everyone!
#2
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
AllBread's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,189

AllBread is offline
I've always dreamed of it - perhaps. Perhaps you could mix in the pieces of an electronic drum kit so that there is something to hit doesn't resonate so much (and you cold get a midi trigger the same time.
#3
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #3
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Lost Angeles
Posts: 4,114

e-cue is offline
#4
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #4
Banned
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Glendale LA, CA
Posts: 306

nimblemongoose is offline
Please don't take this the wrong way as a snaring remark, but I feel bad for any drummer asked to do this by an engineer. Doing this basically turns a drummer into a glorified drum programmer. It's probably worse than sequencing drums with awesome sample libraries.

1. It loses it's humanity (like a programmed drum part)
2. It's still not as clean an "perfect" as programmed drums.
3. Probably takes longer.

So what's the point? I don't get it. Please enlighten me.
#5
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #5
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 252

RANTARAVE is offline
doing what you mentioned is only good for a very musical diarrhea.
#6
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #6
Banned
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Glendale LA, CA
Posts: 306

nimblemongoose is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by RANTARAVE View Post
doing what you mentioned is only good for a very unmusical diarrhea.
Fixed
#7
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
 
sonic dogg's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 929

sonic dogg is offline
It takes quite a drummer to keep the feel doing it that way. And it takes forever to do it. Been there Done that. I didnt ask the drummer to do it. He wanted to try it that way. 6 days 10 songs. He was a great player and you couldnt tell it wasnt tracked all at once.

The SOUND of it was spectacular!!!
__________________
the clubhouse studio....home of drool'n dogg rekords
#8
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
cowboycoalminer's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: I was country, when country wasn't cool
Posts: 2,937

cowboycoalminer is offline
This has merit. I find symbols mostly sound like ass even miked with great overheads because of bleed. I've been thinking of close mic sampling a few and trying it.
#9
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 
vernier's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,367

vernier is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyeatworld View Post
Does anyone ever record drums by doing the cymbals seperately from the toms/kick/snare (two different takes essentially) If you have experience, what's your conclusion? What did you like? what were some problems you encountered? Would you do it again, if so, what would you do differently?


If I do this, I want the drummer to be able to bang on something (where the cymbals would be) to keep his groove and whatever going. I'm thinking maybe muting the cymbals completely? What are some good ways to mute cymbals, or at least enough so that gating them will be no problem whatsoever? Thanks everyone!
Simple is best, having a great drummer play good all the way through. But it's neat to add a crash after the fact, like with a ton of old tube limiter as an effect. As for cymbals in general, its not bad to leave them out entirely, as ABBA did most of the time, as well as many other greats.

With electronic drums, if you want to swap stuff later, no prob, have at it. I do it all the ways mentioned above.
.
.
#10
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #10
Gear nut
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 75

nutone is offline
I have done this a number of times. Most of them, it was the drummer that wanted to try it.

It has always turned out awesome but is a lot of work to get there. Takes a great drummer who has their parts worked out really well.

I have always used electronic pads to take the place of the cymbals while tracking the drums- triggering cymbal sounds so everyone can hear a "place holder" of the cymbals. Then the reverse while tracking the cymbals - pads for the drummer to hit so he can get into the performance (would be weird to just be hitting cymbals...)

I'm sure that you have heard and liked records that used this technique without even realizing that it was used.

-Willie
#11
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #11
Gear Head
 
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 49

jason poff is offline
A less drastic take on this is to overdub crashes only.

Lets the drummer groove naturally.

It's not something I do very often, but it's helpful when going for the HUGE drum sound.
#12
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #12
Gear Dude
 
Mr. Light's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 368

Mr. Light is offline
I just finished an album this way and while right after tracking I swore I'd never do it again, upon hearing the finished product I'll probably try it again. I appreciate the above statement about not wanting to ask a drummer to do it because it loses feel. This is true. That being said it opens up a world of possibility in the mix. Shit experience for drummer/dream come true for mixer.

I would do it again for a slower, simple song. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother.

To anyone hell bent on trying it, make sure drummer practices the songs for a month before going in to track.
__________________
Huuuuhhhblblblblblblblbl
#13
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #13
Gear nut
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 75

nutone is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Light View Post
I just finished an album this way and while right after tracking I swore I'd never do it again, upon hearing the finished product I'll probably try it again. I appreciate the above statement about not wanting to ask a drummer to do it because it loses feel. This is true. That being said it opens up a world of possibility in the mix. Shit experience for drummer/dream come true for mixer.

I would do it again for a slower, simple song. Otherwise I don't think I'd bother.

To anyone hell bent on trying it, make sure drummer practices the songs for a month before going in to track.
Every time I do it, I swear I will never do it again but... The end result always sounds so good that it's hard to say no when a drummer wants to try it...
#14
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #14
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: South Of Poland
Posts: 271

Send a message via Skype™ to Grin-go-go
Grin-go-go is offline
Queens Of The Stone Age have been recording their albums this way since Rated R. For me it sounds amazing.
#15
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #15
Gear nut
 
nooneimportant's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 124

nooneimportant is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grin-go-go View Post
Queens Of The Stone Age have been recording their albums this way since Rated R. For me it sounds amazing.
They've also been recording with joey castillo, dave grohl, and josh freese... who can probably handle whatever you can throw at them.
#16
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Bob Ross's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,155

Bob Ross is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyeatworld View Post
Does anyone ever record drums by doing the cymbals seperately from the toms/kick/snare (two different takes essentially) If you have experience, what's your conclusion? What did you like? what were some problems you encountered? Would you do it again, if so, what would you do differently?
Back in the 1980s I did this on a couple projects.

NEVER. AGAIN.

Seriously, whatever benefits (sic) might have been achieved by tracking the cymbals seperately were completely outweighed by the impediment to a compelling musical performance this technique presented to even very skilled professional drummers.
#17
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #17
Guitar/Vox of Skyway Ave.
 
MikeTSH's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 1,352

Send a message via Skype™ to MikeTSH
MikeTSH is offline
Jim Wirt told me that Elliot Minor's first record was recorded with cymbals separately and that record sounds great. Totally up to the workflow based on the music IMO.
__________________
Musician, Amateur Mixer, Writer
http://facebook.com/skywayavenuemusic

My frozen dairy beverage bringeth all the gentlefolk to the yard, and they claim, "Surely, 'tis better than thine! Surely, 'tis better than thine!" I'd instruct you, though I must levy a fee.
#18
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #18
Gear nut
 
dylanwissing's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Hoboken, NJ

dylanwissing is offline
Honestly, tracking drums and cymbals separately is something I do all the time, and is really not especially hard to do once you get used to it. It is definitely a skill that takes a bit of time to master, but it essentially boils down to air drumming the ghost parts with one to three limbs while tracking. Have your drummer approach it like an independence exercise in the practice room, a la The New Breed or something (a drum textbook most schooled players have gone through). It can seem like a pain at first, but once it becomes second nature the sonic results are worth it!

[And as a slightly off-topic side note, I knew a great drummer in Indianapolis who would air drum all the big usual fills during a gig, which made him one of the most tasteful and musical drummers in town. The practice meant there were big open spaces where the rest of the instruments could breath and shine. It was pretty impressive to watch/listen to!]
__________________
Dylan Wissing
Indie Studio Drummer

GRAMMY-Winning, Platinum-Selling Drum Tracks for Everyone!
www.indiestudiodrummer.com
#19
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #19
Gear Head
 
RickSample's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 47

RickSample is offline
There are some cymbals now that are super quiet, they claim to have only 25% of a usual cymbal's volume. I don't think they are made to be miced up. They are intended to trigger cymbals on an electric kit but give the drummer the feel of real cymbals. I believe Ziljan makes them. They are pricey, but I wonder what those would sound like.
#20
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Bristol_Jonesey's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 528

Bristol_Jonesey is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylanwissing View Post
[And as a slightly off-topic side note, I knew a great drummer in Indianapolis who would air drum all the big usual fills during a gig, which made him one of the most tasteful and musical drummers in town. The practice meant there were big open spaces where the rest of the instruments could breath and shine. It was pretty impressive to watch/listen to!]
We had a drummer whose kit was too big to cart around to the practice room.
So when we were practicing, it was quite off putting when the drums would cut off and he'd be doing the air drum thing, working out what would go where when he had the full kit.
#21
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #21
Gear maniac
 
rockitrecordings's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 276

rockitrecordings is offline
are you just trying to not have phase issues? If so I'd just take some samples of the kick, snare & toms before you start tracking and then replace them afterward. Mileage will very, but usually this gets close to what you're attempting to do.
#22
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #22
Gear addict
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 351

JonMiller is offline
I have never understood why people do this? To me it sounds really fake, I love QOTSA but the drums where this is done do not sound real at all.

What I mean by that is alot of the times the drummer will compensate for the crash cymbal, so you will have a right handed crash and Hi-hat beat both playing at the same time, which is not possible or natural.


However, I also really dislike over drum mics, how often do you listen to a drum set from 6 feet in the air.

It's all about the room mics for me.
#23
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,714

sage691 is offline
To me the "human-ness" factor of live cymbals is 90% of why I seek to record certain songs with a real drummer in the first place. The interaction and bleed between the different cymbals is what actually makes the recording "human" and more interesting than programmed drums for the right type of song that calls for that approach.

If you don't like the cymbal bleed into the other mics why not just sample replace everything BUT the cymbals in post ?

Seems like better results could be acheived that way IMHO.

#24
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #24
Lives for gear
 
musicl's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 748

musicl is offline
Didn't Peter Gabriel have the hats recorded separately though the kick/snare was programmed. Granted, Copland played...
#25
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #25
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 150

FunkyKeys is offline
"Human" doesn't always equal "good".

Tracking cymbals seperately, and also rim shots, for me sounds much better on some songs. Drummer isn't a problem, just hire the guy who can do it.

I love some 80s disco/funk records where the kick and snare is programmed (usually a LinnDrum) and the hihat/cymbals/percussion is played "live" on top of it. Wouldn't want to have a live drummer on those records, that's the right sound for that style.
#26
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #26
Gear nut
 
Loflyinjett's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Hillsboro, Ohio
Posts: 104

Loflyinjett is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMiller View Post
What I mean by that is alot of the times the drummer will compensate for the crash cymbal, so you will have a right handed crash and Hi-hat beat both playing at the same time, which is not possible or natural.
You mean the drummer pedaling the hi-hat while playing? I do this all the time ... It's not unnatural at all. Ever listen to any Smashing Pumpkins? Jimmy Chamberlin is a big hi-hat pedaler. Gives the songs a sense of constant movement.
__________________
- Wes J
Former Drums / Current Guitarist for Ultra Saturday and Bassist for And More!
#27
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,141

biggator6 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loflyinjett View Post
You mean the drummer pedaling the hi-hat while playing? I do this all the time ... It's not unnatural at all. Ever listen to any Smashing Pumpkins? Jimmy Chamberlin is a big hi-hat pedaler. Gives the songs a sense of constant movement.
I think he's thinking more of the common '5-handed drummer' programming error where more than 2 hand-related things are happening at once and it starts sounding fake.. ie, ride cymbal, crash and snare at the same time.
__________________
"Seriously, there's a certain kind of creative inspiration that can come from exploring the outer limits of a musical instrument. Now days the limits are so vast that it can be difficult to set boundaries." --spargee
#28
24th October 2011
Old 24th October 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
jrakarl's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 837

jrakarl is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicl View Post
Didn't Peter Gabriel have the hats recorded separately though the kick/snare was programmed. Granted, Copland played...
Care to share album/song details? I'm sure PG has used many different drum recording techniques/styles over the years.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com App
#29
25th October 2011
Old 25th October 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,141

biggator6 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrakarl View Post
Care to share album/song details? I'm sure PG has used many different drum recording techniques/styles over the years.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com App
I believe that was 'So'. Pretty sure there are no cymbals on the first 2 albums at all.
#30
25th October 2011
Old 25th October 2011
  #30
Gearslutz.com admin
 
Jules's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2002
Location: A Yank in London, UK
Posts: 19,946
My Recordings/Credits

Jules is offline
It requires a 'game' drummer who doesn't mind going through the agony.

Best IMHO is if they actually hit the cymbals while doing the drums BUT to do this you have to put blankets over the cymbals but you really need about 3 towels thick on the hi-hat to stop them making a noise.

to then do the cymbal overdubs the drummers then dont seem to mind 'miming' the drum hits then hit the cymbals..

Its agony to do but the sound can be amazing..

especially if you do the hi hat as a separate overdub.. (IMHO)

Actually to be honest, I only ever did it ONCE on ONE song, it was sheer hell - but produced a fantastic result!
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.