Potential client has "price deafness"

[Jules]

I had a guy come in the other day, asked for our prices, I gave them to him, then at the end of the meeting he confirmed to me that he wasn't listening AT ALL.

Client Q - How much are you per day as producer?
A - £400 - includes me producing, engineer, assistant on load in days & studio
A - or £300 includes young engineer, (who can produce very well too) assistant on load in days & studio

Client - Riiiiiiiiiight..........

Client Q - How long do you spend per song?
A - at least 2 days 3 is better

Client - Riiiiiiiiiight..........

Client - I want to do 3 tunes and one accoustic song and get you involved on the session at least for one day. I need to save up but I wont be able to afford more than £1,000 so I guess I will see you in a few months!

Me -- AGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

See, no matter HOW you do the math, within our price struture, it's not possible to do this on his budget. (Unless I stick him in with the intern, (and this guy was looking for experienced production help)

He floated in wanting to spend £1,000 and floated out THINKING he WILL be able to get his project done or that... but he is wrong.



Does anyone else have clients suffering from 'studio cost deafness"?

[Norman Lindsey]

i had one client who wanted to take a break mid-way through the session and wanted to take a rough mix of what he had done so-far to his house ( during the so-called break ) . the thing was we didn't have this guys address just a mobile phone contact number.
he was going to do a runner . we quoted him up-front but he still came in with no cash.
i stopped the session there and then.you just don't know these days.
good muso though. just poor.

[Yoda117]

being poor is no excuse for trying to pull a runner

[GilWave]

Sad thing is, Jule's prices are VERY reasonable, and this guy STILL doesn't get it.

I would say 50% up front and it's all spelled out on the invoice - no room for error.

Bunch of cheapskates out there huh.

[Jam]

Jules

This sounds like for this guy at least, you could do a written quote. I find that putting stuff in writing makes folks take it more seriously and as a bonus the can settle any arguements later.

Jam

[aetucker1]

Jules, i totally agree. It seems as though people that want to record in a studio dont realize that they have to put up some dough. a lot of musicians dont get the fact that not all things relating to music are artistic...studios are a business first. even in my "studio" where I record mostly for fun and as a suppliment to my normal day job income...people come in and think that I am gonna drop my prices lower than their buddy that has a 4 track. I usually just tell them to shop around for other studios in town and see what they can get price wise and then come back and talk to me. if they dont come back, most likely i will get them back on their next album once they realize that they spent WAY too much for what they got.

[Tom VDH]

...not to mention that this kind of client will always ask you for the dopest level of production possible...
Jules, your prices are more than decent, we, in this business, will just never be able to compete with people's ignorance or meanness...
My latest inquiery call was from a guy who said he had a name in the industry, sold 4 million copies of his last Dance hit, needed "DA BIG SOUND" for his tracks, BUT "I have no budget for this project right now..."
Tell you what, some people really ARE scarry!

Cheers,

[Fat larry]

Its can be worse for mastering engineers because somtimes they have blown the budget by the time they get to us, And try to use either selective hearing or ''Do you price match?'' in order to get the service for less than its worth.

Park lane tastes Peckham pockets
Larry

[DarkSky]

Hey Kules,
There is a lot of cheapness in the world. And a lot of selective hearing also. We're never going to escape that IMO.

Consolation is that there are people who know what a thing is worth and expect to pay appropriately for it. Best not to waste too much time on the others, I guess.

[jimmydeluxe]

Move to Atlanta, where the going rate is, "$0 per hour." Seriously, there are so many people giving away time--even with decent setups--that it's killing the rest of us. One offer is, "$100 for unlimited studio time," but they advertise every day! How can they do that with more than one act? Problem is, most of the artists can't tell the difference anyway.

I had someone (talented, for a change) hit me up today, with a "very tight budget." After some discussion (didn't want to be TOO direct!), turns out their range was $50-$250 PER SONG. Not to buy/lease a beat, but record a SONG.

"Sure, I'll compose the music, play guitar, bass, drums, keys, program, track, probably tell you some words to use that actually rhyme, rewrite your weak melody, then melodyne the sh** out of your performance for $50--who wouldn't want to do that???"

[Sonic Nomad]

Originally Posted by Jam

Jules

This sounds like for this guy at least, you could do a written quote. I find that putting stuff in writing makes folks take it more seriously and as a bonus the can settle any arguements later.

Jam

+1

These days it's common practice for me to put every quote in writing so that the client has a clear understanding and breakdown of what they are paying for.
If it's anew client the quote states that a 100% upfront deposit is required prior to production comencing. Older clients get up to 45 days to pay unless it's a huge project that requires many session mussos then I request a partial deposit to cover the mussos as they can get grouchy waiting for payment.
But mostly my corporate clients are ok.

It's the artists off the street who can go down the road to Joe Soap's studio where he has a PC with every plug-in on the planet (crakz) a cheopo sound card and condenser with the walls plastered with duvets and Hifi speakers and offers my services at a tenth of the price.

I blame the retailers who stock these CD's and the Radio stations for playing crap quality productions!

[TornadoTed]

A studio opened near me with a 003 and Mackie 8 Buss giving away recording time free.

It makes me look expensive and I'm reasonably cheap as I'm starting out and trying to get established.

I've had quite a few emails and MySpace messages with' We are really good and want to record but have no money, can you help us'

A lot of musicians don't realise the costs of running a studio, heating, electric, business rates, repairs etc etc etc

[Jules]

If you suggest to some amateur bands that they could afford the studio time if they skip..

Going to the Movies
and
Big drinking sessions
and
Buying video games

For a month or two....... they don't like it - they can so stuck into their work / leisure time routine, that they cant find room in it for a new venture - recording the band. They have factored 'the band' and rehearsals into their weekly leisure time budget - and often pick a fantasy budget for recording that is unrealistic. When you suggest a bigger budget they see that as bad news as they will have to reduce leisure spending in other areas.. and this can make them grumpy.

Its annoying, and a kind of classic 'hobby band' attitude.

The real 'hard bitten' semi pro band making a bid for stardom push things to the edge, they have jobs that they can get time off from for gigging, constantly push their bosses to breaking point with time off (gigs and recording), and bogus 'sick days' to do band related stuff.. But even with the more pro-active attitude - they are always broke!

So you cant win...

"Bands are a nightmare" - the celebrated, 'catch all'. multi-purpose phrase works here too!

This MySpace generation who self manage themselves are missing out on all the 'manager types' that used to pay for recordings as a most of those those wannabe managers disappeared from the business when things tightened up circa Brittany & accountant 'bean counter' take over time in the mid / late 90's when there were less and less deals to be had.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Jules

Client - I want to do 3 tunes and one accoustic song and get you involved on the session at least for one day. I need to save up but I wont be able to afford more than £1,000 so I guess I will see you in a few months!

Me -- AGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Change the quote to add the following conditions I figure are implied:

Originally Posted by Jules

Client - I want to do 3 tunes and one accoustic song and get you involved on the session at least for one day. I need to save up [since] I wont be able to afford more than £1,000 this week so I guess I will see you in a few months!

[ryst]

Originally Posted by jimmydeluxe

Move to Atlanta, where the going rate is, "$0 per hour." Seriously, there are so many people giving away time--even with decent setups--that it's killing the rest of us. One offer is, "$100 for unlimited studio time," but they advertise every day!

So true.

[octatonic]

This is pretty much why I'm out of working with bands these days.

Not enough money in my end of the market anymore, if there ever was.

Finding it more lucrative to do remote guitar sessions for people- they don't need to block any studio time for me to do my thing- I just send them the files and they use them.
The rest of the time I teach and trade gear on ebay, craigslist, gumtree and such.

Rarely a band will contact me because of something I've done in the past- I'll quote them for the project and then they start in with "Can you do it for....".
At that point I just make myself unavailable.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by peeder

Change the quote to add the following conditions I figure are implied:

True. £1000 this week for one song sounds a lot better than £4000 maybe never. I would have encouraged him to do the one song now, and finish the rest when he has the funds. As it stands, you have nothing, and he'll probably end up spending his money getting substandard results from some project studio.

I deal with this all the time, although not in the music field. People can very rarely (i.e. never) afford my annual rate without executive approval. So, I do a one-off, 1-2 week gig for them, knock their socks off, and then I get a call from the CIO 6 months down the line. You do what you can to help them out the best you can now. If it was worth the money this time, they'll be back with more later.

[joelpatterson]

I got a call five minutes ago from a guy who wants to bring in his bluegrass quartet to make a sampler CD of seven or eight or nine or ten tunes so they can market themselves to coffee houses, and the greatest part is "it will only take an hour."

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I got a call five minutes ago from a guy who wants to bring in his bluegrass quartet to make a sampler CD of seven or eight or nine or ten tunes so they can market themselves to coffee houses, and the greatest part is "it will only take an hour."

An hour? Probably not.

2 hours? Sure.

It's a bluegrass demo. Get them sounding good in the room, throw up a couple of mics, press record. Normalize/limit, some fades, burn cd.

Come on, people, it's about the music.

[rowan_rashard]

i remember calling a major studio the other day and getting quoted $250 an hour for their A room...which is not bad(its an ssl room)...what killed me was the engineer prices...$150(this is probably the guy making coffee) to over 5k(their top guy)...drove the point home that recording looks to be a rich mans game...that 250 was pretty damn good though...atleast to me

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by evangelista

... 2 hours? Sure...

Eeeeeeeesh....

I have a funny feeling that what they really want-- without maybe exactly realizing it-- is a nicely multi-tracked, "produced" sampler CD that really makes them shine. That they can enjoy listening to themselves, and would leave the coffee house manager floored. That puts them head and shoulders above their competition.

Not so much a quick stereo room mic sampler where it sounds like a quick stereo room mic sampler.

But then, this is the eternal dilemna: I want anything with my name attached to it to sound exceptionally awesome, I kind of have this feeling in the back of my mind that anything less than that would be too much like a self-inflicted wound, in this cut-throat world in which we live in. A recurring nightmare is to have the coffee house manager say, "Who did this for you? Well, you should listen to these other guys, they went to a really good studio..."

So the line at the bottom would read, "how much am I willing to sacrifice and do pro bono to insure the survival of my reputation?"

Ummm... anything and everything?

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by evangelista

2 hours? Sure.

It's a bluegrass demo. Get them sounding good in the room, throw up a couple of mics, press record. Normalize/limit, some fades, burn cd.

Come on, people, it's about the music.

Gimme a break!

Maybe in 5-6 hours. You have to set up for an hour at least. You're going to record for at least one hour, more than likely two because chances are they aren't going to be perfect on all the songs in a single take. Then you should do *some* minimal mixing, about an hour or two, and then burn down is going to be an hour. And then you have to rip the CD's... and this is assuming you do "bofo" mastering on the mix.

No matter what it's going to be kind of second rate even in that time frame.

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Eeeeeeeesh....

I have a funny feeling that what they really want-- without maybe exactly realizing it-- is a nicely multi-tracked, "produced" sampler CD that really makes them shine. That they can enjoy listening to themselves, and would leave the coffee house manager floored. That puts them head and shoulders above their competition.

Not so much a quick stereo room mic sampler where it sounds like a quick stereo room mic sampler.

But then, this is the eternal dilemna: I want anything with my name attached to it to sound exceptionally awesome, I kind of have this feeling in the back of my mind that anything less than that would be too much like a self-inflicted wound, in this cut-throat world in which we live in. A recurring nightmare is to have the coffee house manager say, "Who did this for you? Well, you should listen to these other guys, they went to a really good studio..."

So the line at the bottom would read, "how much am I willing to sacrifice and do pro bono to insure the survival of my reputation?"

Ummm... anything and everything?

I understand and respect your position. I come at it differently.

Less than the guy who makes perfect recordings, I want to be known as the guy who makes music happen.

In the case of someone like you describe, I would explain to them exactly what they can expect from a 2 hour session. As in, a reasonable representation of the musicianship of the band. It will not sound like the foo fighters, and they should expect for mistakes to make it to the final.

I never lead clients on; I always discuss, in detail, what is involved in making whatever record they want to make.

Ivan

[upinflames]

Originally Posted by rowan_rashard

i remember calling a major studio the other day and getting quoted $250 an hour for their A room...which is not bad(its an ssl room)...what killed me was the engineer prices...$150(this is probably the guy making coffee) to over 5k(their top guy)...drove the point home that recording looks to be a rich mans game...that 250 was pretty damn good though...atleast to me

You could just come to Murfreesboro and find some student to recording your in the MTSU B studio, which has a Duality, for free. The hours might suck, but hey, no engineer or studio fee.

[sctt_stone]

Question for Jules. If I came to you and said that I wanted one song to be tracked produced and mixed on the level of a Nigel Godrich production for Radiohead What would that cost me?
Assuming I had the tallent to pull it off with first takes everytime.
How long would it take you to do that one song?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by sctt_stone

Question for Jules. If I came to you and said that I wanted one song to be tracked produced and mixed on the level of a Nigel Godrich production for Radiohead What would that cost me?
Assuming I had the tallent to pull it off with first takes everytime.
How long would it take you to do that one song?

How long would it take to type a novel vs. how long would it take to write a novel.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

But then, this is the eternal dilemna: I want anything with my name attached to it to sound exceptionally awesome, I kind of have this feeling in the back of my mind that anything less than that would be too much like a self-inflicted wound, in this cut-throat world in which we live in. A recurring nightmare is to have the coffee house manager say, "Who did this for you? Well, you should listen to these other guys, they went to a really good studio..."

Man, that is so true. Bad news travels fast, and I live in a relatively small town. Seems like it would only take one dissatisfied client bad-mouthing me to create a whole lot of trouble

Frank