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pre delay and reverb plus delay?
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Outlaw Hans
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6th October 2011
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pre delay and reverb plus delay?

Would you ever use a pre delayed reverb together with a delay? or would you just stick to the one delay that the predelay offers. I´ve only just discovered pre delay and I´m trying to get a sense of what it does.
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It can be either, often times automated throughout the song for effect
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Predelay is just a simple delay of the signal going in to the reverb. So normally I would not use a separate delay for the purpose of predelay.

However, you might want to use a separate delay if you wanted to impart some character into the reverb. For example, you might use a tape delay before a plate.

If you're using a separate delay as a predelay, set the delay to 100% wet. But you can also experiment using a delay mixed into the straight signal going in to the reverb. This will not give you predelay however, so you may want to add predelay using the reverb's built-in predelay.
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I´m 100% analog these days as far as reverb goes. EMT140 all the way. For delay I´m gonna get a space echo one of these days. I still have my kurtzweil rumour digital delay and I figured maybe it would be useful to use as predelay. But would you ever use a predelayed reverb plus a dedicated delay on one source? Let´s say the rumour into the plate as predelay-reverb and a space echo on aux two for more slapback? Is it common practise or would the two delays just mess with each other and make things blurry?
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Pre delay in the old days for me was a tape deck running as 7.5 or 15 ips before the plate or spring reverb. Now If it's not a pro tools delay plug in. I use 20 ms to 150 ms pre delay on my PCM70 . I think when you use 80ms and up to 150ms you put the reverb behind the lead vocals. You don't have to use as big a room with pre delays. I would not asign the pre delay back to the mix. Would use a 2nd delay unit. However It can be done if you like the sound and are short on delays. GT
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yeah, I would use the Kurzweil as a pre-delay for your EMT. Or for modulation, compression, eq - all the other stuff it can offer, which might be useful on a reverb send.

In the old days of chambers, tape delays were used to give a delayed feed to the chamber. I believe "A day in a life" by the Beatles uses this trick - sounds good to me.

For me the pre-delay is about uncluttering the reverb, and increasing the apparant size of the reverb (so you can use less). It's also about sitting the reverb into the groove of the track.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
yeah, I would use the Kurzweil as a pre-delay for your EMT. Or for modulation, compression, eq - all the other stuff it can offer, which might be useful on a reverb send.

In the old days of chambers, tape delays were used to give a delayed feed to the chamber. I believe "A day in a life" by the Beatles uses this trick - sounds good to me.

For me the pre-delay is about uncluttering the reverb, and increasing the apparant size of the reverb (so you can use less). It's also about sitting the reverb into the groove of the track.
Not 100% sure, but I think A Day In The Life was just tape 'flutter echo'.
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a delay before a verb is great on vocal so they don't sound so washed out because of the verb, but the vocal still retains a 'distance' from the verb. that is a traditional 'pre-delay'. Sometimes you want it the other way it depends on the texture you want. no rules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans View Post
Would you ever use a pre delayed reverb together with a delay? or would you just stick to the one delay that the predelay offers. I´ve only just discovered pre delay and I´m trying to get a sense of what it does.
yes, if I understand your question, you would use them both during a mix.

pre delayed reverb just delays the "bloom" or "tail" of the reverb.

delay, or echo, is typically where you hear specific repeats.


To further confuse things...I often run the send to my delay/echo to a reverb either before it hits the echo, or sometimes after the echo, the reverb softens and diffuses the "edges" of the echo.

If youre working in a DAW, set up a vocal hitting a few different combinations of things, and try them on, and see what appeals to you.

have fun.

best,
Sean
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Outlaw Hans
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Alright then. So you would just hear one repeat from the predelay drowned in reverb?. And then you´d use a dedicated delay for the effect. Isn´t it difficult to align something like a space echo so that it fits exactly with the one repeat of the pre delay? or shouldn´t you worry about that?
I listened to some early seventees Elvis records the other day and noticed the upfront vocals followed by a tail of plate reverb. Just lovely. Must of been predelay and a plate.

Oh. BTW. I work on tape. So I have to stick to what´s possible in the analogue world.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw Hans View Post
Alright then. So you would just hear one repeat from the predelay drowned in reverb?. And then you´d use a dedicated delay for the effect. Isn´t it difficult to align something like a space echo so that it fits exactly with the one repeat of the pre delay? or shouldn´t you worry about that?
I listened to some early seventees Elvis records the other day and noticed the upfront vocals followed by a tail of plate reverb. Just lovely. Must of been predelay and a plate.

Oh. BTW. I work on tape. So I have to stick to what´s possible in the analogue world.
Not sure if I am getting the question, but the effect of pre-delay is to add a miniscule gap before the reverb comes in. It makes the original signal sound a bit clearer and less washed out, but you still hear the reverb. It can be very effective and a bit more pro sounding, good on snares too (I find,) but sometimes straight reverb suits the track better, you just have to try both and experiment with the delay time. You can also add a delay (single or multiple echo) in with the straight reverb or if you're using a space echo, mix a bit of it's spring reverb with the plate. There are no rules.
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tried it. Works great. Thanks!
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I also often do first a delay with feedback and then the reverb. Can give a nice space...
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i like this sometimes

vox > aux send 1 > reverb with predelay > mix/group
+ vox > aux send 2 > normal delay > back to desk channels > aux 1 + mix/group

maybe try ducking the reverb, i like it on snare drum (no predelay used, just a compressor to get down the reverb when the snare punches in)

well, many methods, every one sound different
have fun :-)
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Quote:
It makes the original signal sound a bit clearer and less washed out, but you still hear the reverb.
And FWIW, in a natural situation there's a delay before the early reflections and reverb set in, too.


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