I admit it, I funked up!

Jay Kahrs · 29th August 2003

Anyone ever make a really bad judgement call during tracking and you just want to chug a bottle of Drain-O at mix time or maybe halfway through the overdubs?

I'm attempting to mix a project where we started with the drums and the band wanted a "full sound, no attack" on the bass drum. The drum had a full reso head on it so I couldn't get a mic inside and I didn't put one on the beater side. Now I have this lumpy mess of a kick and I'm trying to make it heard in the mix but it just ain't working. Sounds great with just drums & guitars and ok with drums & bass, but all three + overdubs and vocals?

Ugh.

FWIW, I've tried to trigger a sample and it's damn shaky at best. I might have to go with the buried "implied kick" vibe on this one.

Jax · 29th August 2003

Not being able to hear it, another suggestion is to feed the kick to the sidechain of the bass comp and set it for ducking at each kick hit. Don't know if that'll help in this case, but it might.

StuartMac · 29th August 2003

A job for a Transient Designer, perhaps?

Meriphew · 30th August 2003

How about just having the existing kick trigger a sampled kick?

Ruphus · 30th August 2003

Here you could find an idea:

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.p...rue#Post424845

Hope it can help somehow.

Ruphus

2leod · 30th August 2003

Have you tried recording another track matching the kik with hits on one of those rubber practice pads? Blend it in for a little more snap on the attack...

mdbeh · 30th August 2003

Ugh. I've been there. A while ago, I was recording a track for a Beck-ish singer-songwriter, and decided to do really minimalist micing of the drums, with the idea that they should sound "old school" or something...

When it came time to mix, I just couldn't get anything resembling an attack that could cut through the bazillion+ samples and keyboard overdubs. I ended up triggering a clicky sample, as well as multing the original track, cutting everything but where the click should have been, and running it through a Sansamp.

It became usable, I guess, so you could try either or both or those, but I still would have killed for a track of 421 aimed at the beater.

Best of luck...

RichT · 30th August 2003

Jay,

Do you know anyone with a portable DAW and a copy of Drumagog?

Cheers,
Rich

Jay Kahrs · 30th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by 2leod
Have you tried recording another track matching the kik with hits on one of those rubber practice pads? Blend it in for a little more snap on the attack...

That's what I'm thinking of doing right now. The first thing I tried was multing the original kick off to a gate and using that to feed an Alesis D4 to trigger a sample. It ain't working too well, too many missed notes because the attack isn't there. We were shooting for something similar to the Foo Fighters kick on "Nothing Left to Lose". I got the thump perfect. Now I need some attack. Shit. At least I have until Tuesday to muck around with it.

Anyone else ever do anything dumb like this?

RichT · 30th August 2003

When our studio was running those Fostex Hard Drive things with no DAW I've sneakily 're-played' the bass drum on an EP.

The drummer's timing was so loose it helped to at least tighten the bass drum playing.

Mute the bass drum out - sit with a pad for one hand to hit as your 'snare' and just play the kick in right places. Easier to do if you're actually a drummer I guess

The drummer in question was blown away by the finished product and has said it's his best recording ever. What they don't know won't hurt them...

Cheers,
Rich

Tim L · 30th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
... Anyone else ever do anything dumb like this?

Ohhh yes... I was able to gate a mult so just the initial hit was open (kinda like the 'blip' you would use to trigger the D4). I eq'd & compressed the shite out of it then tucked that back under the original till it had something resembling a

on it... wasn't fun, but it worked.

Gone Fission · 30th August 2003

If you have good isolation on the kick mic, you could reamp it to a really nasal little guitar amp (Peavey Rage might actually be useful here); parallel it to a bad comp set to stun or a gritchy sort of Distressor setting; maybe see if an exciter or encode-only noise reduction pulls the right frequencies; or, if you feel like a trip to Rat Shack, reamp through a high frequency horn, which ought to have a really honky sort of push right around the beater click frequencies. (Damn, it's like reamping is my answer to everything.)

Bear

Nutmeg II. · 30th August 2003

2nd transienten designer
fast gate that produce an audible click when it opens up
kick > cheesy walkman headphones/speakers (make them distore) > mic
aluminium foil in front of a speaker (lowcut kick > foil > mic >highpass)

2leod · 31st August 2003

Yeah, I agree, the reamping trick might just get you there too. I did something similar on a mix project where the drums came to me, sounding real bad..... on one track (don't ask...

). In the DAW I duped the drum track 3 more times and used GRM's Bandpass to isolate the kik, snare and hi-hat and compressed, EQ'd, mangled, whatever it took, then blended them in with the original track. I would have liked to re-do the drums but it was a small run self-release the band was doing - you know, no budget. I guess it worked OK, the band was happy with it...

Screws · 31st August 2003

I sympathize with you, Jay. I recently recorded a "Hardcore" band (nu metalish) and had a kick sound that didn't have enough click to it. I thought I was just going to have to process the crap out of it, until I discovered a plug in that's in my new version of Digital Performer.

Trigger allows you to use the audio track to trigger a midi module or sampler. Saved my butt.

Steve Smith · 31st August 2003

Sound Replacer anyone?

There are a few aeras where PT really kicks ass, and this is one of the most useful. Your problem would be fixed in the time it took to type the inital post.

I sympthize with ya.. it does suck to realize that the pooch is screwed.. but hey, time for some lemonade!

Roland · 31st August 2003

I'd go either sound replacer, Drumagog, or try the transient designer, that can really save you ass. Protools/computer edit would fix it.

The other idea of muting out the bass drum and retracking it alone might also work.

Regards

Roland

Brad McGowan · 4th September 2003

Try multing the kick to another track and using some radical EQ, and compression to bring out the attack. Use a high pass at like 1 kHz or something really high before you hit the compressor. Then boost at 4 kHz to really bring out whatever faint sound of a an attack might be in the original track. Perhaps a gate in between the EQ and compressor may help to filter out some of the snare hits too.

As far as the triggering idea goes. Perhaps try triggering without using the gate. You'll get extra triggers, but you can always go through and either cut or mute the extra hits out. It may be a bit tedious, but it may get you there.

Otherwise, chalk another one upto experience.

Good luck,
Brad

alphajerk · 4th September 2003

why not just mult, HP, gate and tweak? then level it and mix it back in with the unaffected track?

Jay Kahrs · 4th September 2003

That's pretty much what I did. I actually ended up putting an Electrix Filter Queen on the output of the mult in a stationary filter to get more splat. I never should've let the band talk me out of putting a mic on the batter head. Never again.

alphajerk · 4th September 2003

i havent mic'd the batter head in quite some time... for a long time i was only micing the batter head, then both the heads, now just the resohead. probably go back to micing both next. maybe i will start taping a quarter to the beater head again.

Ruphus · 4th September 2003

Or the pearl pedal with switchable heads :o)

30th August 2003	#5
Ruphus Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Berlin / Germany Posts: 5,167	Here you could find an idea: http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.p...rue#Post424845 Hope it can help somehow. Ruphus __________________ "Am I the only one that tires of this "everything is subjective" watered-down-pop-culture-pseudo-philosophy bullshit?" Bravin Neff Wolgang Burr, former office leader of the German Chancellor before committee of inquiry: "You would not believe what unusual happens daily." "Patience, young Skywalker - let the object of your desires come to you." JTR "All thinking men are atheists." Ernest Hemingway

30th August 2003	#7
mdbeh Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 459	Ugh. I've been there. A while ago, I was recording a track for a Beck-ish singer-songwriter, and decided to do really minimalist micing of the drums, with the idea that they should sound "old school" or something... When it came time to mix, I just couldn't get anything resembling an attack that could cut through the bazillion+ samples and keyboard overdubs. I ended up triggering a clicky sample, as well as multing the original track, cutting everything but where the click should have been, and running it through a Sansamp. It became usable, I guess, so you could try either or both or those, but I still would have killed for a track of 421 aimed at the beater. Best of luck... __________________ --Brian

30th August 2003	#8
RichT Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 1,469	Drumagog?? Jay, Do you know anyone with a portable DAW and a copy of Drumagog? Cheers, Rich __________________ www.oldblacksmiths.com www.myspace.com/theoldblacksmiths

30th August 2003	#12
Gone Fission Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Terra Incognita Posts: 494	If you have good isolation on the kick mic, you could reamp it to a really nasal little guitar amp (Peavey Rage might actually be useful here); parallel it to a bad comp set to stun or a gritchy sort of Distressor setting; maybe see if an exciter or encode-only noise reduction pulls the right frequencies; or, if you feel like a trip to Rat Shack, reamp through a high frequency horn, which ought to have a really honky sort of push right around the beater click frequencies. (Damn, it's like reamping is my answer to everything.) Bear __________________ Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

30th August 2003	#13
Nutmeg II. Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: GEARmany Posts: 985	2nd transienten designer fast gate that produce an audible click when it opens up kick > cheesy walkman headphones/speakers (make them distore) > mic aluminium foil in front of a speaker (lowcut kick > foil > mic >highpass) __________________ "Any recording engineer who uses a tube U47 is obviously not a professional" Stephan Temmer 1979

29th August 2003	#2
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 4,763	Not being able to hear it, another suggestion is to feed the kick to the sidechain of the bass comp and set it for ducking at each kick hit. Don't know if that'll help in this case, but it might.

29th August 2003	#3
StuartMac Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 893	A job for a Transient Designer, perhaps?

30th August 2003	#4
Meriphew Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle USA Posts: 2,874	How about just having the existing kick trigger a sampled kick?

30th August 2003	#6
2leod Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: A big Canadian island in the Pacific, but my citizenship is otherworldly... Posts: 936	Have you tried recording another track matching the kik with hits on one of those rubber practice pads? Blend it in for a little more snap on the attack...

31st August 2003	#14
2leod Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: A big Canadian island in the Pacific, but my citizenship is otherworldly... Posts: 936	Yeah, I agree, the reamping trick might just get you there too. I did something similar on a mix project where the drums came to me, sounding real bad..... on one track (don't ask... ). In the DAW I duped the drum track 3 more times and used GRM's Bandpass to isolate the kik, snare and hi-hat and compressed, EQ'd, mangled, whatever it took, then blended them in with the original track. I would have liked to re-do the drums but it was a small run self-release the band was doing - you know, no budget. I guess it worked OK, the band was happy with it...

31st August 2003	#15
Screws Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 716	I sympathize with you, Jay. I recently recorded a "Hardcore" band (nu metalish) and had a kick sound that didn't have enough click to it. I thought I was just going to have to process the crap out of it, until I discovered a plug in that's in my new version of Digital Performer. Trigger allows you to use the audio track to trigger a midi module or sampler. Saved my butt. __________________ Steve Cruz Cruzified Music Florida

31st August 2003	#16
Steve Smith Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,384	Sound Replacer anyone? There are a few aeras where PT really kicks ass, and this is one of the most useful. Your problem would be fixed in the time it took to type the inital post. I sympthize with ya.. it does suck to realize that the pooch is screwed.. but hey, time for some lemonade! __________________ Steve Smith - Unorignal, yet commonplace.

31st August 2003	#17
Roland Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: St Leonards on Sea, England Posts: 2,068 2 Reviews written	I'd go either sound replacer, Drumagog, or try the transient designer, that can really save you ass. Protools/computer edit would fix it. The other idea of muting out the bass drum and retracking it alone might also work. Regards Roland

4th September 2003	#18
Brad McGowan Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 5,525	Try multing the kick to another track and using some radical EQ, and compression to bring out the attack. Use a high pass at like 1 kHz or something really high before you hit the compressor. Then boost at 4 kHz to really bring out whatever faint sound of a an attack might be in the original track. Perhaps a gate in between the EQ and compressor may help to filter out some of the snare hits too. As far as the triggering idea goes. Perhaps try triggering without using the gate. You'll get extra triggers, but you can always go through and either cut or mute the extra hits out. It may be a bit tedious, but it may get you there. Otherwise, chalk another one upto experience. Good luck, Brad

4th September 2003	#19
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,260	why not just mult, HP, gate and tweak? then level it and mix it back in with the unaffected track? __________________ "i must invent my own systems or else be enslaved by other men's'" william blake __________________________ email: barrett [at] alphajerk [dot] com

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4th September 2003	#20
Jay Kahrs One with big hooves Join Date: May 2002 Location: Earth, NYC metro Posts: 5,898 Thread Starter	That's pretty much what I did. I actually ended up putting an Electrix Filter Queen on the output of the mult in a stationary filter to get more splat. I never should've let the band talk me out of putting a mic on the batter head. Never again.