Which TOSLINK and RCA SPDIF to get?

[maz]

I'm looking for both a TOSLINK cable, as well as RCA SPDIF cables.

Do you know of any good brands to get?

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by maz

I'm looking for both a TOSLINK cable, as well as RCA SPDIF cables.

Do you know of any good brands to get?

I'm firmly convinced that toslink / optical cables are all the same, at least for short distances. Search for my earlier post on this subject (I performed a test that proved this to my satisfaction). IMO, expensive glass cables offer no benefit ot Hosa "plastic" fiber cables aside from better protection on account of thicker sheathing.

I think Canare cable is great for S/PDIF -- there are lots of good vendors making custom cables on eBay and elsewhere. Any good 75 ohm cable should do fine. No need to buy packaged Apogee or anything else in that price range.

-Synth80s

[maz]

Cool. I think the distance for my toslink will be around 3 feet, maybe I can use my cheapie toslink cable I have which came with my old sound card.


As for COAX SPDIF, what do you think about HOSA? I believe the have teh 75ohms 10 ft cable.

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by maz

As for COAX SPDIF, what do you think about HOSA? I believe the have teh 75ohms 10 ft cable.

Sure, I'd give 'em a run. There are a lot better ways to spend your money than buying expensive digital cables. It's just 0s and 1s, man! You'll have to get pretty far down your recording chain to suspect your digital cables of being the source for audio issues (way beyond source, mic, preamp, A/D, D/A, etc.)

I believe in spending money on analog cables, however -- the differences are audible.

-Synth80s

[Zwinter]

I have had several clients who I tremendously respect (guys who I know are able to hear the difference) shoot out optical cables. Believe or not, there is a difference! Ultimately these customers decided that the Hosa cables suck. If you can’t hear the differences try getting your ears checked. I have a hearing test every year to track any hearing loss.

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

I have had several clients who I tremendously respect (guys who I know are able to hear the difference) shoot out optical cables. Believe or not, there is a difference! Ultimately these customers decided that the Hosa cables suck. If you can’t hear the differences try getting your ears checked. I have a hearing test every year to track any hearing loss.

A few notes:

1) Did you bother to look at the test I ran to prove my point? In summary: I ran various signals back and forth through optical and glass cables in phase reverse, monitoring and and recording the summed output. There were no differences either audibly or looking at the resultant file down to the sample level. If there were a difference, I think it would have to show up in the resultant file.

2) I work in the audio and IT worlds. Cheap plastic fiber cables are the norm in the data center. While TCP/IP ad FC protocols have error checking built in, you can look at the error rates in the data that traverse these fiber runs. When that number is zero (as it almost always is when everything is correctly configured), you have to wonder what value it would be to run different cables. If plastic fiber is good enough to assure the data integrity of Oracle databases on a storage area network, I think it can safely be called bit accurate. 1s and 0s are 1s and 0s.

3) Cables are a source of high margin income for retailers. I always consider the source.

4) Insulting your potential customers is generally not a good policy. My ears are fine -- maybe you should get your head checked.

Sometimes using an empirical approach is helpful when suggesting a point of view. Simply saying something is true doesn't make it so. Had you suggested any tests or thought processes beyond spewing back other peoples' thoughts, I might give more weight to your opinion.

I've spent plenty on Mogami cables and I know there's an audible difference where they are concerned, but I still hold that expensive fiber is snake oil. Until someone shows me that the 1s and 0s are different between the cables, I'm not buying it.

-Synth80s

[maz]

You mentioned toslink,but how about coaxial for SPDIF? Would any 75ohm cable be the same as any other?

It would suck if I spent all the money on resetta 200 and end up getting degredation by getting a cheaper cable..

[Zwinter]

Originally Posted by Synth80s

A few notes:

1) Did you bother to look at the test I ran to prove my point? In summary: I ran various signals back and forth through optical and glass cables in phase reverse, monitoring and and recording the summed output. There were no differences either audibly or looking at the resultant file down to the sample level. If there were a difference, I think it would have to show up in the resultant file.

2) I work in the audio and IT worlds. Cheap plastic fiber cables are the norm in the data center. While TCP/IP ad FC protocols have error checking built in, you can look at the error rates in the data that traverse these fiber runs. When that number is zero (as it almost always is when everything is correctly configured), you have to wonder what value it would be to run different cables. If plastic fiber is good enough to assure the data integrity of Oracle databases on a storage area network, I think it can safely be called bit accurate. 1s and 0s are 1s and 0s.

3) Cables are a source of high margin income for retailers. I always consider the source.

4) Insulting your potential customers is generally not a good policy. My ears are fine -- maybe you should get your head checked.

Sometimes using an empirical approach is helpful when suggesting a point of view. Simply saying something is true doesn't make it so. Had you suggested any tests or thought processes beyond spewing back other peoples' thoughts, I might give more weight to your opinion.

I've spent plenty on Mogami cables and I know there's an audible difference where they are concerned, but I still hold that expensive fiber is snake oil. Until someone shows me that the 1s and 0s are different between the cables, I'm not buying it.

-Synth80s

Dude, I am sure you spent a lot of time performing your test, but I personally do not know you and don’t know what kind of work you do. Without being in the room with you I have no way of validating how accurate your results are. In my original post I said that I have had several customers who I trust, which means I have spent enough time with them to know what kind of work they do, that all have said the same thing, the Hosa’s suck.

Now to address some specific issues that you brought up; I am sure the Hosa cables are capable of having zero error (if 100011110110 goes in then 100011110110 comes out the other end), which is great if you are Oracle. But that is not the full issue. A major part of audio is when things happen. (Plus, the last time I checked Oracle did not care about the sonic quality of their 1’s and 0’s.) Why do you think people spend money on more accurate clocks? These cheaper cables introduce jitter and all of a sudden these converters that you spent thousands of dollars on sound worst because of the jitter introduced by them.

Now about my head, I have had it checked and the neurologist said he could not find anything wrong.

[CompEq]

I can't comment on the sound of Hosa cables, but I bought several balanced cables 3' in length and of the 8 or 10 that I bought, I noticed that 2-3 were bad within a couple of weeks. I then went and bought the same number of quality cables (rebranded) at a trusted electronics store and they have all been fine so far (6 years later).

[maz]

Not sure if 0's and 1's have "sonic quality". Maybe you are refering to if you drop the 0's and 1's then you get degredation. But any 0 and 1 is the same as any other...

My biggest concern was if with increasing length, if there is such a drop in either toslink or coax. In toslink, maybe yes with longer distances but as was mentioned, I think it should be a non-issue with distances like 3 feet.

However for coax at 10 feet, I think that as long as the cable is 75ohms, it should be all ok too. Your tests are reassuring, as long as you looked at the content and did a check sum to see if there was ANY loss of data. If there wasn't, then there is NO, repeate NO loss in sound quality. PERIOD.


Thanks again.

[LightningBefore]

Originally Posted by maz

You mentioned toslink,but how about coaxial for SPDIF? Would any 75ohm cable be the same as any other?

It would suck if I spent all the money on resetta 200 and end up getting degredation by getting a cheaper cable..

im selling my Rosetta 200 so message me if youd like a price!

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

Dude, I am sure you spent a lot of time performing your test, but I personally do not know you and don’t know what kind of work you do. Without being in the room with you I have no way of validating how accurate your results are. In my original post I said that I have had several customers who I trust, which means I have spent enough time with them to know what kind of work they do, that all have said the same thing, the Hosa’s suck.

Now to address some specific issues that you brought up; I am sure the Hosa cables are capable of having zero error (if 100011110110 goes in then 100011110110 comes out the other end), which is great if you are Oracle. But that is not the full issue. A major part of audio is when things happen. (Plus, the last time I checked Oracle did not care about the sonic quality of their 1’s and 0’s.) Why do you think people spend money on more accurate clocks? These cheaper cables introduce jitter and all of a sudden these converters that you spent thousands of dollars on sound worst because of the jitter introduced by them.

Now about my head, I have had it checked and the neurologist said he could not find anything wrong.

Where do I start? You're insinuating that I either didn't do any testing or I may have tested something incorrectly. Have YOU tested anything personally? Don't just repeat what your customers have told you -- tell me what YOU have done to prove out your claims that X sucks and Y is great. Stop being a salesperson for a minute and think about the issue.

FWIW, people often spend money on master clocks for common clock distribution (as opposed to daisy chaining which can be problematic) -- "better" clocking is not the only rationale. I have a well clocked system (Lucid master) with no issues. I replaced cheap wordclock cables with Canare because I was experiencing clocking errors/drops from time to time, so I see the value there. I also replaced all my analog cable a few years back after testing a few cables and I can hear a diference, so I see the value there. I'm not afraid to spend the money when it makes sense. In the end, I could not hear a difference between cheap plastic and more expensive glass toslink cables after ample testing, nor could I produce a resultant output file with evidence of differential data between the cables. So when it comes to optical cable, I don't spend money where I don't believe there's added value.

You're suggesting that I have some burden of proof on GS whereas you can just spit out second hand information with nothing to back it up. Why? because you work for an audio reseller? I've got a better idea: since you're the one claiming there's a worthwhile difference, why don't you try proving it to the forum? How are we supposed to validate the accuracy of your claims? Back it up. Prove to us that Hosa cables introduce audible jitter. If you can do that, I might even buy some better cables from you.

Like it or not, my opinion and my personal experience is just as valid as anyone else's, so I'll offer my opinion and back it up by offering details about how I tested the issue for my purposes. Meanwhile, you can keep on offering other peoples' opinions in lieu of having developed one for yourself.

-Synth80s

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by CompEq

I can't comment on the sound of Hosa cables, but I bought several balanced cables 3' in length and of the 8 or 10 that I bought, I noticed that 2-3 were bad within a couple of weeks. I then went and bought the same number of quality cables (rebranded) at a trusted electronics store and they have all been fine so far (6 years later).

Sound quality aside, there's no question that Hosa cables aren't particular rugged. I've had no problems with my optical cables, but I can see how they'd be easily damaged because their sheath looks like a thin layer of vinyl. I run them in a plastic "snake conduit" (hopefully that makes sense).

I'm not convinced that spending more on optical will buy better audio quality, but it will likely buy you more durable cable.

-Synth80s

[Synth80s]

Originally Posted by maz

Not sure if 0's and 1's have "sonic quality". Maybe you are refering to if you drop the 0's and 1's then you get degredation. But any 0 and 1 is the same as any other...

My biggest concern was if with increasing length, if there is such a drop in either toslink or coax. In toslink, maybe yes with longer distances but as was mentioned, I think it should be a non-issue with distances like 3 feet.

However for coax at 10 feet, I think that as long as the cable is 75ohms, it should be all ok too. Your tests are reassuring, as long as you looked at the content and did a check sum to see if there was ANY loss of data. If there wasn't, then there is NO, repeate NO loss in sound quality. PERIOD.


Thanks again.

If you're not sure, buy a set of expensive cables (from someplace that accepts returns -- maybe Mercenary) and buy some cheap ones (ditto). Do some testing of your own and see what you think. Post what you find to the board!

-Synth80s

[Synth80s]

One more thought: I'm using my optical cables to run 16 channels back and forth between a digital mixer and my computer. I think we can all agree that Bob Katz is an authority on all things digital audio -- I'm still reading his excellent book, "Mastering Audio."

Bob states that jitter is not introduced over toslink between digital devices because they don't pass clock, but that A/D and D/A connections are the critical paths where digital cable makes a difference. I use word clock all around and Canare S/PDIF to my A/D and D/A converters, so that would explain why the cheap fiber runs make no difference for my purposes.

-Synth80s

-----

(from http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule...der_page_id=52)

"Toslink vs. Copper
From: Grant Lyman GrantLyman@mailandnews.com

My comments are:
Bob, thanks for your informative web site and your great comments on the Mastering and Sonic newsgroups. I am hopeful I could get your opinion on a few questions I have. First, have you ever heard Toslink or Glass to sound as good as AES/EBU or SPDIF. My initial tests seem to indicate Toslink and even Glass tend to close the sound stage and thin out the sound. I have heard you mention in the past that the terminations on Toslink and Glass are critical for proper performance. Have you tested what you consider to be properly terminated Toslink or Glass against AES/EBU or SPDIF what was your conclusion.


I thank you, and value your opinion


Grant Lyman
Santa Barbara, CA



Dear Grant:

This is ultimately a jitter question, you know. My answer is that the apparent sonic differences between interface technologies such as Toslink, glass, and copper are IRRELEVANT when doing transfers or when passing signal from one processor to another. You can forget about that question with COMPLETE CONFIDENCE--since all of the technologies are capable of passing perfectly good data, within their specified cable lengths. Remember: the clock is not transferred along with the data. Only the data is transferred to the processor's circuits.

The apparent sonic differences between interface technologies come into play in only ONE place... and that is at the input to the converters (A/D and D/A).

If the D/A is susceptible to jitter on its digital inputs (as most are), then you will hear differences between toslink (plastic fiber), glass fiber, and copper (hard wire). Some D/As reject jitter better than others, and that will determine the extent you can hear these differences. REMEMBER: This is only important to that particular listening session (the D/A only) and not to any other circumstance.

(more)"

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by maz

I'm looking for both a TOSLINK cable, as well as RCA SPDIF cables.

Do you know of any good brands to get?

After a studio-rebuild I've had problems with cheaper Toslink cables their length were 10 meters, on one of this opticals I have also to transfer the locksignal, 'cause there were no extra Wordlock input on one of the converters. This was never a problem before but this time there were a lot of "spiks", drop-outs etc. a real nightmare! I did a research and ended by a manufacturer who explained me the differences betwin toslink cables. "... some brands use cheap optical fibres which can produce internal reflextions, especially when there are small curve radii where the cable runs, also the ends of the optical fibres must be cut plane flat which isn't always the case... this can cause errors" ...which was the case in my setup! I used more expensive Toslink and the problems where gone. BTW the brand was Oehlbach but I'm sure there are others which are good.

good luck...

[maz]

Let me clarify my set up.

I will connect my korg triton extreme to rosetta via toslink (3 feet) to transfere spidf 48khz / 24 bit signals.

From there, I have connected my rosetta 200 to audiophile 192 with COAX SPDIF.


I'm not sure if work clock would be transported on either of the above, I am not that knowlageble yet about engineering.

Please let me know again if I can get away with getting hosa coax or cheaper optical cables for my above setup sepecifically.

For my analogs, I'm going with mogami balanced.

Thank you so much, very informative.

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by maz

Please let me know again if I can get away with getting hosa coax or cheaper optical cables for my above setup sepecifically.

I think with a short distance of 3 feet there should be no problems with cheaper cables, the damping is also really small. There is always a clock transfer within SPDIF or ADAT... it's part of the format.

Andreas

[maz]

Cool. thanks, very helpful advice guys, I really appreaciate it.