Tip send vs. Ring send?

[woods]

Lets say You had an 1176 strapped across an insert but - the desk is wired for ring send and tip return (like the Soundcraft Ghost). But the insert cable is
wired so that the tip is sending to the 1176 and the ring is the return from
the 1176.

What would happen?
Would the 1176 still get a signal?
Would it work correctly?

[Rick Sutton]

Doesn't look too promising. If I read your description correctly the two inputs see each other and the two outputs see each other. No signal is going to pass.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by woods

Would it work correctly?

What do you think?

[DontLetMeDrown]

Damn. Just when I finally think I understand all this cable stuff. Anyone know any good resources to find more about this "basic" stuff.

[woods]

Seems weird I know.

But an insert cable I made to use with a Mackie (tip send/ring return)
Seems to work on the Ghost (ring send/tip return).
Or at least it appears to.
I'm just wondering if somehow the 1176 could be receiving signal?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by woods

Or at least it appears to.

This is the magic sentence of the day.

I've never seen a setup where the ring was the send.

[woods]

Unless it's a misprint the manual for the Ghost describes the 1/4" A Guage Jack Plug as insert poins. ie. channel inserts, group inserts and Mix inserts. Tip return,
ring send, sleeve ground (screen(.

[Benmrx]

ummmm.....on your insert cable (at least on mine) the two TS ends are labled. One says "tip", one says "ring"

Just plug the ring into the input of your device and the tip into the output.

I've got a ghost and it works just fine

I was a little thrown off by the idea of the ring-send/tip-return scheme. I don't get why they went that way, but whatever...it works.

[nathanvacha]

Yeah, you can always just switch the plugs on the 1176. plug the tip (normally send) into the output of the 1176 and the ring, which would normally be the return, take it out of the output, and plug it into the input of your 1176.

And Benmrx: What is that in your avatar? I was thinking sometime soon i'll go in and get another tattoo and i was thinking about schematics of something cool on my arm...

[aevan]

Well you could swap the input and output connections to an 1176....but you'll need to do it at the barrier strip. Swap the xlr tails where they're screwed onto the terminals. If the Ghost is yours you might as well make up some cables for it.
As far as the connections being reversed and still getting signal...are you actually hearing it pass audio or is it just the meter moving? Is the audio you send it coming out backwards? Does it sound something like "I buried Paul"?

[absrec]

Sounds like you should make a dedicated insert cable for the 1176 and label it as ring-send, tip-return.

I wouldn't go in and mess with the internal wiring of the 1176, especailly if it's a vintage one. Using the barrier strips makes sense for this application. Here's a tip... (no pun intended) Make "pigtails" to go on the barrier strips. All they would be is short XLR cables with little clips you get from Radioscrap (Radioshack) on the other side. You know, the kind that look like a little horseshoe with a color coded piece of plastic over the place where wire gets crimped. I usually crimp and solder for durability. Just screw those onto the barrier strips and that way, you can change gender quickly with only a flathead screwdriver. I've done this on my dBX 160 VU-style comps and it works like a champ.

A wise man once said to me, "there's Radioshack in every rig".

Peace out!

[woods]

Lets say I am using 3 conductor to attach the XLR m,f to the horse shoe clips --
I am assuming the hot goes to one clip and the cold to the other. Where does the shield go?

I found a couple old pig tails -- and whoever made them did it with 3 conductor cable with the two covered wires going to one horseshoe and the uncovered wire going to the second clip.

If this is the case what attaches to the ground terminal on the 1176?

[Rick Sutton]

Woods, what's the deal? Did the cable work with both schemes or was the in/out end reversed on the 1176? Also, what were the connector types on the dual end of cable and on the 1176 and how were they wired? Sorta works?
Do you have a VOM? If not, it's time to get one and learn how to use it. A lot of head scratching can be avoided with a VOM and a small amount of effort.

[Sounds Great]

Plenty of times I've had outboard devices not working only to discover I had them backwards. One of the easier fixes, though.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Plenty of times I've had outboard devices not working only to discover I had them backwards. One of the easier fixes, though.

I agree Rob. I'm always happy when I find that the problem was caused by SOM rather than something that is gonna require an expensive repair. As humbling as it may be, it really is the best scenario.


















For those of you unaware of what SOM is: Severe Operator Malfunction

[dbbubba]

This thread rates up there with the "how do you pronounce Nuemann?" thread...

You guys scare me!

Danny Brown

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

This thread rates up there with the "how do you pronounce Nuemann?" thread...

You guys scare me!

Danny Brown

What's so scary? The probability that something in the original premise is incorrect? (that worries me) The fact that several of us attempted to help but probably confused the original poster further? The apparent fact that there is confusion on whether a board is tip or ring send? I found this perplexing and looked at the Soundcraft site and found varying statements about this but did find at least one mention of ring/send.
Or did we all look clueless? I'll admit that it can appear that way at times.
Oh well. Everybody's gotta pick up the technical knowledge at some point by whatever means are available to them or forever be doomed to cluelessness.
But what does this have to do with pronouncing "Nuemann"?
I admit that I don't have a clue as to how that would be pronounced, but I've got a pretty good idea of how to pronounce "Neumann".

[Harley-OIART]

I'm sorry If this has already been repeated in this thread (I didn't have time to look hardcore) but yeah :

I was always told : British Standard = Tip Return / Ring Send
American Standard = Tip Send / Ring Return

hence soundcraft

[TornadoTed]

I used to have a Ghost many moons ago, sometimes handy to plug a unbalanced cable half way in use it as a direct output. Not an elegant solution granted but it worked ok.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by TornadoTed

I used to have a Ghost many moons ago, sometimes handy to plug a unbalanced cable half way in use it as a direct output. Not an elegant solution granted but it worked ok.

With my Ghost, this is how I sent the 24 channels to the multitrack. The tape outputs were post-fader.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by TornadoTed

I used to have a Ghost many moons ago, sometimes handy to plug a unbalanced cable half way in use it as a direct output. Not an elegant solution granted but it worked ok.

A lot of people (myself included) do the same with Mackie's inserts. Even though the "send" is on the tip, as long as the plug doesn't go all the way in and break the normalled contact, the "return" ring is effectively the same signal.

[absrec]

Originally Posted by woods

Lets say I am using 3 conductor to attach the XLR m,f to the horse shoe clips --
I am assuming the hot goes to one clip and the cold to the other. Where does the shield go?

To another. If you are connecting it to a balanced piece of gear such as the 1176. However, if you are using unbalanced sends such as the ones coming from an insert point on a console, the cold wire and the shield get connected to earth.

Originally Posted by woods

I found a couple old pig tails -- and whoever made them did it with 3 conductor cable with the two covered wires going to one horseshoe and the uncovered wire going to the second clip.

If this is the case what attaches to the ground terminal on the 1176?

Neither. That person f&*ked it all up. It's always pin 1 and pin 3 that get connected when connecting to an unbalanced piece of gear. A good way to remember this is by recognizing that on a 1/4" TS end, the area that would be the ring and sleeve on a TRS end, is one continuous peice of metal know as the sleeve.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by absrec

That person f&*ked it all up. It's always pin 1 and pin 3 that get connected when connecting to an unbalanced piece of gear. A good way to remember this is by recognizing that on a 1/4" TS end, the area that would be the ring and sleeve on a TRS end, is one continuous peice of metal know as the sleeve.

It's hard to tell from the descriptions what is screwed up as the descriptions are all too vague. Like, the two covered wires go under one horshoe. Yeah, that definitley SOUNDS wrong, but depending on how the other ends are connected (or left unconnected) it could actually work , admittedly with the probability of compromised shielding. Woods needs to be much more specific about what terminals (horseshoes) the wires connect to and what those wires connect to on the other ends of the pigtail. Without that info everybody is guessing. Guarandamnteed.
Now, the pin 1 and pin 3 always going to unbalanced gear. Wrong. Wrong on two counts. There is no "always" when it comes to connecting balanced and unbalanced gear. Secondly, it would only be 1 and 3 if you had a miswired xlr or were interfacing to a nonstandard (usually older) piece of gear. The established standard for xlr is 1=ground, 2=positive, 3=negative. If you use 1 and 3 there should be no potential between the connections and, therefore, no signal.
I still says Woods needs to get a VOM and learn how to use it.

[woods]

Take a look. Might help me ask a few more questions.


http://www.soundcraft.com/download.a...ions_lead1.pdf

http://websrvr25ca.audiovideoweb.com...sert_cable.pdf


Why is a bus wire used to tie pins 1 and 3 together?

If I am to make pig tails to go on the back of the 1176 - how would they be wired to work with the the insert cable?

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by woods

Take a look. Might help me ask a few more questions.


http://www.soundcraft.com/download.a...ions_lead1.pdf

http://websrvr25ca.audiovideoweb.com...sert_cable.pdf


Why is a bus wire used to tie pins 1 and 3 together?

If I am to make pig tails to go on the back of the 1176 - how would they be wired to work with the the insert cable?

Hi Woods, Got a question. The first link says Soundcraft. This link shows the insert cable (third up from bottom) and the send is shown from the TIP. In your first post you say that Soundcraft is wired as RING send.
This needs to be explained before we go into any further wiring schemes.

[woods]

Whoa. Now you got me thinking.

Look at the second one up from the bottom. I am making the XLR to TRS inserts.

I was thinking the way it is diagrammed that they are referring to the send being on the XLR end - meaning sending from the compressor to the TRS and then returning to the other XLR.

Also, see this link to the Ghost manual and look at page 2.7 - the second Jack Plug down.

http://www.soundcraft.com/download.a...pages1_184.pdf

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by woods

Whoa. Now you got me thinking.

Look at the second one up from the bottom. I am making the XLR to TRS inserts.

I was thinking the way it is diagrammed that they are referring to the send being on the XLR end - meaning sending from the compressor to the TRS and then returning to the other XLR.

Also, see this link to the Ghost manual and look at page 2.7 - the second Jack Plug down.

http://www.soundcraft.com/download.a...pages1_184.pdf

Yeah, I've seen contradictory info on the Soundcraft site. You may have to do a little experiment with the insert to see if it is really TIP or Ring send. This what I'd do (my methodology would normally be to use a VOM to measure the output of the insert jack but this will be a "guerilla" approach so I'm doing a little guessing here).
Get a mono 1/4" cable and connect it between your insert on your mixer and another device that you can either see the input via metering or hear the input. Run a strong signal through the channel of your board that has the cable in the insert. Assuming that the normalling connection is broken when a cable is inserted all the way and knowing that the mono jack will ground the ring making it unable to send or receive: if the device that is on the other end of the cable receives the signal the insert is TIP send. If it does not receive signal then pull out the 1/4" plug to the first click and see if the outboard device is getting signal. If it is you probably have ring send. If it still isn't getting signal something is bogus in your test setup and check everything before testing again.
An even better way is to to put a stereo jack into the insert and use (with ground lines connected) an alligator clip lead to try the ring and tip seperately to send signal to an outboard device and that should tell you which is send.

One last thing. On the wiring diagrams the reason I am assuming that they are referring to the mixer end being tip send is the common usage of the term SEND /RECEIVE is NORMALLY used as it relates to an insert. On an outboard device like an 1176 the terms NORMALLY used are INPUT/ OUTPUT. So even though the terms SEND / RECEIVE are written above the XLR, I am working on the assumption that they are referring to the mixer. I would think that this is a fairly safe assumption....but an assumption never the less. Like I said, I have seen contradictory info on the Soundcraft site and it may even relate to when the mixer in question was manufactured as Soundcraft has been around over 30 years. So you're best method is to measure it and know for sure. If you are not the original owner it is even possible that someone before you changed the send/receive wiring as it would be simple to do.
Best regards, Rick

[Sounds Great]

I think it is a matter of terminology.

I've run into this before. When they say send/receive, does this mean send from the board, or send from the device?

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

Damn. Just when I finally think I understand all this cable stuff. Anyone know any good resources to find more about this "basic" stuff.

Rane has good info http://www.rane.com/library.html

Particularly http://www.rane.com/note110.html


Regards,
David

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by woods

Look at the second one up from the bottom. I am making the XLR to TRS inserts.

I was thinking the way it is diagrammed that they are referring to the send being on the XLR end - meaning sending from the compressor to the TRS and then returning to the other XLR.

Woods, as far as which unit the send / return is being referenced to in that particular diagram look carefully at the xlr connectors and you can see the one labeled "send" is MALE, which would go into the input of the 1176 and the one labeled "return" is female, which would go in the output of the 1176. As I was assuming, the "send"/ "return" refers to the mixer not the outboard device.
I have not been able to load the 2nd link from Soundcraft so I can't evaluate that. I did find on the Soundcraft site references to some product having tip/send and some product having ring/send so it is not clear.