In-house Engineer Pay

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Hey guys,
I've been in talks with a studio about coming in and being their "go-to engineer." All of my recording experience up until now has been freelance. These guys are providing the building, utilities, etc., and I would be bringing in half of the gear, running the sessions, and doing whatever work they throw at me. I'm wondering what I (reasonably) should be able to request in terms of compensation. Do most in-house engineers get paid per project? Per hour?

If hourly, what should I ask for? If by project, what cut (percentage) is reasonable to expect?

Looking for any in-house engineers who might be able to shed some light on this situation, so that I don't go into this totally blind and risk getting taken advantage of. Thanks.

[seaneldon]

Ideally, it should be in direct relation to what the room pulls in for a full day INCLUDING your services as the "house guy".

How much you want is up to you, but a room that gets $500 a day really isn't gonna get $200 to the guy running the deck.

[Oli_W]

IMO charge whatever your freelance rates are... maybe less if you get "perks" (such as use of downtime etc).

[Revson]

What's your rate as a freelance? Since you're bringing in a good portion of gear you might as well just keep your rate the same. You may drop it a little since it's a more steady gig, but again since you're bringing in gear I wouldn't drop it much at all.

You may want to wait for them to make an offer and go from there. They may give you a better rate than you were going to ask for, though that's a very outside chance.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

I currently charge $20-25/hr for the freelance work that I do.

[Jules]

Perhaps have an increased rate as you go past 10 hours? For weekends?

[Dan Korneff]

Most places I know only pay minimum wage for staff. Anything above that is lucky

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by PorpoiseMuffins

Hey guys,
I've been in talks with a studio about coming in and being their "go-to engineer." All of my recording experience up until now has been freelance. These guys are providing the building, utilities, etc., and I would be bringing in half of the gear, running the sessions, and doing whatever work they throw at me. I'm wondering what I (reasonably) should be able to request in terms of compensation. Do most in-house engineers get paid per project? Per hour?

If hourly, what should I ask for? If by project, what cut (percentage) is reasonable to expect?

Looking for any in-house engineers who might be able to shed some light on this situation, so that I don't go into this totally blind and risk getting taken advantage of. Thanks.

you need to get paid for all your time
including setup breakdown and haulin/out time
and for the equipment usage plus wear and tear

[gogar]

If you're really willing to be the "house guy", make sure you're ready to work from Friday Night at 6 to Sunday at midnight, and hardly ever 9 to 5.

I'd suggest for the moment you should ask for your $20-25 hourly and see how you feel about it at the end of the day, and if it's in line for how the room is being run.

If you're going to be LEAVING your gear there for others to use (I mean break) then that kind of changes the dynamic IMO. Bringing in your favorite gear for your sessions is your perogative, but if you're introducing "essential" gear to a session then that's a bit different and you should be compensated differently or (as already mentioned) maybe you could do trade-out time or you should modestly charge them for long-term rental.

If you're considering leaving some expensive stuff there for when you AREN'T there, then you also need to think about how your gear is insured, and if you're properly covered for when it disappears or burns up in a fire, etc.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Alright, so it sounds like an hourly rate is the standard practice.

In which case I need to find out exactly what the studio is planning on charging its clients and go from there.

So let me try asking something a bit more concrete: Assuming the studio rate was, say, $60/hr, would I be getting hosed if I was making, say, $15/hr? (considering that the studio might also have a paid producer or assistant engineer type in the room at any given time).

[StarfishMusic]

Originally Posted by PorpoiseMuffins

Alright, so it sounds like an hourly rate is the standard practice.

In which case I need to find out exactly what the studio is planning on charging its clients and go from there.

So let me try asking something a bit more concrete: Assuming the studio rate was, say, $60/hr, would I be getting hosed if I was making, say, $15/hr? (considering that the studio might also have a paid producer or assistant engineer type in the room at any given time).

Let me ask for a second, why not just start your own joint? If let's say they are brining in $50-$60 pr hr, and your getting say $25-30, what is it they are providing you with that is helpful or essential to you? Is it the steady business, the large format analog console, The amazing treated rooms, artists with name recognition for your portfolio? These might be reasons I'd be a house at a commercial studio, however having your own little studio and making $25-20 pr hr is really not that hard.

Don't think all your gear, rooms, mics have to be all top notch. Most customers care less about that than you'd think. What they care about is you (for the most part) IMHO if the clients are willing to pay $60 pr hr to have you engineer, those same level of clients would glaldy pay you $40 or even that same $60 at your new smaller joint. I ask again if you are providing half the gear and are knowledgable, why not just fill a few holes in what you own, and get a little space? What is it they are giving you that is worth half of your $60 pr hr?

If it's opportunities beyond what you could have going on your own right away, like working with known artists or around the clock work then I'd be all for it. If it's you provide half the gear and well give you a space with some gear that's just snobby stuff thats not essential, but we'll take half the money I'd probably skip it at that level. Now if it's $35-50 pr sess hr at a real legit studio with an SSL or Neve board and they are bringin in $90-$100 pr hr and are busy, I might just have to jump on that.

Oh and yes you'd be getting hosed at $15 for a $60 studio but not at a $30-35 one

[MarkRB]

Being in-house would suggest you will get thrown all kinds of work, so an hourly rate is the only way to go.

If the studio is making 60 you could reasonably expect 20, maybe a bit more if your gear and contacts are bringing in work.

I was told a while back that a sensible idea of business income/expenditure looks like; 1/3rd Running Costs, 1/3rd Wages, 1/3rd Profit.
Kind of idealistic, and assumes you are working everyday, but worth noting.

[Steffmo]

I do 20.00. 25.00 if the engineer brings in the client.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Originally Posted by StarfishMusic

Let me ask for a second, why not just start your own joint? If let's say they are brining in $50-$60 pr hr, and your getting say $25-30, what is it they are providing you with that is helpful or essential to you? Is it the steady business, the large format analog console, The amazing treated rooms, artists with name recognition for your portfolio? These might be reasons I'd be a house at a commercial studio, however having your own little studio and making $25-20 pr hr is really not that hard.

That's a good question, and you pretty much answered it. They've got a real sweet space, which is what I'm lacking right now. And yes, they also have a nice large format console, not that that's anywhere near a necessity anymore. But I'm really looking to get out of the house and make some connections with people. If it were feasible for me to start my own space somewhere, I would probably do that instead, but the $ just isn't there right now.

But thanks--I really appreciate your perspective.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Originally Posted by Steffmo

I do 20.00. 25.00 if the engineer brings in the client.

Thanks. That's helpful, especially coming from someone in the same geographic location. How's business down there?

[Greg Curtis]

Many problems here for you.

Your gear, as an employee, should not be integrated into your employer's business. If I were forced to do this I would want formal paperwork. Including lease agreements, depreciation, maintenance, and suitable insurance payments. why not ask them to purchase it from you? Then, it is a much simpler deal. You could provide, in writing a clause for you to get it back, less wear and tear and use fees.

$15-$18 is all the money for top rank-and-file studio engineers in L.A. $25 is for big shots in film/TV post with an impressive resume.

I would seek out a deal where your clients pay you your standard rate, and they pay the studio separately. Plus gear rental.

Greg

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

$10-$18 is all the money for top rank-and-file studio engineers in L.A.

That's not even minimum wage is it? Kind of sceptical about that statement. Otherwise... Damn....

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

That's not even minimum wage is it? Kind of sceptical about that statement. Otherwise... Damn....

Minimum wage is $8-something.

Typo: I meant $15-18 for top house engineers.
Runners start at minimum.

GC

[Lord Fear]

15-20 an hour is standard for assistants at the major studios in la. Infact I can think of one major studio that specifically fires it's runners after they complete training so they no longer have to pay taxes and overtime to them once they start assisting for 15-20 an hour. This creates a situation in which the runners making minim wage with overtime can make more than the assistants.

Then you have a place like Capitol where the assistants make like 35 an hour and are union.

Basically it just varies ddepending on how much your studio makes and how much you are doing on the session.

[robstercraw]

Last place i was house i got 1/3rd of all sessions i worked. Then i eventually brought in enough gear to demand 1/2. Then i brought more clients and gear and started a b room. I paid them 1/3rd of all sessions in that rm, regardless of who engineered. Eventually i just opened my own spot. Now i keep it all......except for rent, utils, alarm, insurance, insurance, insurance, and just random bs upkeep. Bummer!!!

[soundeq]

Originally Posted by Lord Fear

15-20 an hour is standard for assistants at the major studios in la. Infact I can think of one major studio that specifically fires it's runners after they complete training so they no longer have to pay taxes and overtime to them once they start assisting for 15-20 an hour. This creates a situation in which the runners making minim wage with overtime can make more than the assistants.

Then you have a place like Capitol where the assistants make like 35 an hour and are union.

Basically it just varies ddepending on how much your studio makes and how much you are doing on the session.

I think your numbers are a little high for assistant engineers that come with big studios. I'd like to think they are making 15-20/hr but thats just not the case at the top level LA studios I know of. Union is a whole nother story. I remember assistants back in NYC who had been on the gig 12+ years as assistants cause it was a good union thing.

[soundeq]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Many problems here for you.

$15-$18 is all the money for top rank-and-file studio engineers in L.A. $25 is for big shots in film/TV post with an impressive resume.

I would seek out a deal where your clients pay you your standard rate, and they pay the studio separately. Plus gear rental.

Greg

WAYYY off on these numbers. more like 35-50/hr for your base kinda fill-in engineer if your billing to a major client.

$25/hr for big shots in post? Hell to the ni-zo...

The economy is bad, but not that bad..... yet....

[Steffmo]

Originally Posted by PorpoiseMuffins

Thanks. That's helpful, especially coming from someone in the same geographic location. How's business down there?

Business is medium. I don't think that the regional booking scene will ever be as good as 10 years, even 5 years ago. It took a nasty dive three years when it was announced the economy tanked. Has come back some, but not all the way. some other stuff has picked up though.....I do the record capture for "Live at Infinity Hall" Which replaces a day or two a month.

We haven't announced it yet, but a partner and I have just signed a funded record company deal with EMI which hopefully will eliminate any dependance on local. I will still service local, but hopefully it will be gravy once we get a few acts in play.

I do think its a little comical that everyone here just says open your own place. The market is so fragmented now that the failure rate of these new rooms is astromonical. Personally, I think you stand a better chance befriending ALL the studios and bring work to all of them.

Running a studio takes a huge amount to time, and it cuts into the time that you can be out there meeting and developing artists and clients. Granted at some point having your own place will be cool, but it isn't for everyone, and it isn't a sure shot.

Remember that when you open a place some other studios will view as competition and might not funnel you work anymore.

Just an alternate viewpoint from someone who has survive 23 uears in the studio biz.

Best of luck. Come by if you are around.

[Steffmo]

Originally Posted by soundeq

WAYYY off on these numbers. more like 35-50/hr for your base kinda fill-in engineer if your billing to a major client.

$25/hr for big shots in post? Hell to the ni-zo...

The economy is bad, but not that bad..... yet....

Well......I don;t know that is that far off. Sure if you are talking about a major client. But let me ask you this....when was the last time you saw a major label client come in and use a house engineer??????

Major stuff travel with their own folks. A house guy is generally servicing locals, and they aren't paying 100.00 an hour, which is what a session should be paying in order to pay an engineer 40.00 an hour.

Now, I'm not saying the engineer isn't worth 40.00 an hour. But when the enginneer is getting 50 percent of what the room is getting, there are going to be problems down the line.

[cianthreetimes]

I am a budding producer/engineer in LA, currently assisting a well-known rock producer. In my 'spare time', I freelance at various studios around CA for $250/day.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Thanks again everyone.

I'm not sure where the discrepancy in numbers is coming from, but I don't think it's really fair to accuse anyone of being deliberately dishonest. It's probably the "in-house" bit that people are getting hung up on and interpreting differently.

[DaVogi]

maybe it is different on your side of the ocean but here in europe it is normal that in-house stuff gets about 30% less than a freelancer + you also have to consider vacation-money and other special payments the freelancer gets on top of that rate. so for example in postpro an freelance engineer would make about 4500 euros for a 4 week project but only 2500 euro as an staff engineer.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by DaVogi

maybe it is different on your side of the ocean but here in europe it is normal that in-house stuff gets about 30% less than a freelancer + you also have to consider vacation-money and other special payments the freelancer gets on top of that rate. so for example in postpro an freelance engineer would make about 4500 euros for a 4 week project but only 2500 euro as an staff engineer.

Vacation money? freelancers get paid "vacation money" and other special payments?

I don't know about the rest of europe, but in the UK a freelancer might charge more than an in house guy (not that we really have in house guys any more; in a way I'm "in house" but I'm still invoicing as a freelancer, and I also find a lot of my own work) because they DON'T get a salary, holiday/sick pay, and certainly no other financial benefits! they DO get to write off expenses, which you can't do if you're in house.

[rhythmtech]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Vacation money? freelancers get paid "vacation money" and other special payments?

I don't know about the rest of europe, but in the UK a freelancer might charge more than an in house guy (not that we really have in house guys any more; in a way I'm "in house" but I'm still invoicing as a freelancer, and I also find a lot of my own work) because they DON'T get a salary, holiday/sick pay, and certainly no other financial benefits! they DO get to write off expenses, which you can't do if you're in house.

+1

i was beginning to wonder what i was missing out on

[DaVogi]

there are collective contracts in the film business in germany, austria... which specify day/week rates including special payments and without....so the vacation payments... are already represented in the normal fee a freelancer gets you could say. but lets look at it from the other side, then it hopefully gets clearer what I actually wanted to say.

coming from a freelance fee you have two consider two things if you want to compare freelance-rates with employement-rates -> as an employee you get 14 and not 12 payments in a year (in austria this would be around 28% reduction). also 30% seems to be 'normal' as a reduction for a fixed employment (including vacation days, notice period, continued salary when you're sick...).

math example:

freelancer: 1100 euros / week = 4400 / month
employee: 4400/1,28 (vacation payments...) = 3400 euros *0,7 (steady gig reduction) = 2400 euros / month BRUTTO

if you are a fixed free, than this doesn't apply, but depending your agreement reductions may be feasible for a steady gig.