In-house Engineer Pay

[rhythmtech]

postpro is a different world to audio!

when i work freelance in audio i charge whatever i want. it could be 30% more than an "in-house" is getting on salary, it could be 500% more. it all depends on the project, budget and studio rental costs.

holidays are taken bewteen jobs and i look after my own health and pension (erm.. maybe not so much pension )

[DaVogi]

Originally Posted by rhythmtech

postpro is a different world to audio!

when i work freelance in audio i charge whatever i want. it could be 30% more than an "in-house" is getting on salary, it could be 500% more. it all depends on the project, budget and studio rental costs.

holidays are taken bewteen jobs and i look after my own health and pension (erm.. maybe not so much pension )

sure, different worlds I agree, and all off my numbers are just example for typical project. depending on the project and the experience of the engineer numbers can climb up quite higher. BUT I think it is important to know this things if you are comparing salary of an employee with the fee of a freelancer... NO MATTER what branch you're operating in.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by DaVogi

there are collective contracts in the film business in germany, austria... which specify day/week rates including special payments and without....so the vacation payments... are already represented in the normal fee a freelancer gets you could say. but lets look at it from the other side, then it hopefully gets clearer what I actually wanted to say.

I don't think that's any different to what we're saying about freelance rates being higher to incorporate the days you're not working/unpaid holiday etc.

Originally Posted by DaVogi

coming from a freelance fee you have two consider two things if you want to compare freelance-rates with employement-rates -> as an employee you get 14 and not 12 payments in a year (in austria this would be around 28% reduction). also 30% seems to be 'normal' as a reduction for a fixed employment (including vacation days, notice period, continued salary when you're sick...).

math example:

freelancer: 1100 euros / week = 4400 / month
employee: 4400/1,28 (vacation payments...) = 3400 euros *0,7 (steady gig reduction) = 2400 euros / month BRUTTO

if you are a fixed free, than this doesn't apply, but depending your agreement reductions may be feasible for a steady gig.

I don't understand this - why 14 payments not 12? Surely employees get a salary every month? And freelancers get what they earn... there's no regular payments at all.

A rough rule of thumb is your yearly salary is your hourly rate x 2000 - so someone earning 15/hr is earning 30k/year, regardless of currency. Based on a 40hr week, 50 weeks a year. So if you're working freelance, the equivalent hourly rate can be calculated if you know roughly how many hours you work each month.

[DaVogi]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I don't understand this - why 14 payments not 12? Surely employees get a salary every month? And freelancers get what they earn... there's no regular payments at all.
.

actually I don't know how this is handled in other countries but in austria, germany.. as a regular, unlimited time period employee you get two special payments in the year on top of your normal salary which equals roughly a months salary.
on in june thats called 'Urlaubsgeld' (vacation benefit)
on in november called 'Weihnachtsgeld' (christmas bonus)

also you have 5 weeks of paid vacation.

of course freelancer don't get that, even if they're working 12 months a year for a company as a fixed free.

[Musiclab]

To the OP do you know what the rate of the studio you're talking to charges?
For instance if they charge 50.00 an hour, there's no way they can pay you
25.00. Most studios charge by the hour, a day rate is usually discounted from the hourly rate.

[toneguru]

You mention leaving some of your gear at the studio. What kind of gear?

U47, Pultecs, EAR 660's, Telefunken V76's? or

RE20, PCM42, Distressor, 737?

Also, do they insure and maintain your equipment?

If you are bringing in super prime pieces that are filling holes in the studio inventory I would consider leasing the gear to them at about 1/2 to 1 percent the gear value per month (they insure and maintain). The % rate depending on factors like how often you are working there and how often others will be using the gear plus the profit and cash flow of the studio.

Then keep your eng rate separate. If you are bringing in under $20k in gear it may not matter much.

I would imagine that there are many situations where down the line separating the two (gear and eng) is the way to go and also I'm sure that others have combined them and avoided hassles too. Obviously, everything is situational and often depends on the prior relationships etc.

Honestly, I find it interesting and informative to read all of the replies. Reminds me that the real world is anything but black and white and things are always changing.

Best of luck to you. You seem like a cool cat.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by soundeq

WAYYY off on these numbers. more like 35-50/hr for your base kinda fill-in engineer if your billing to a major client.

$25/hr for big shots in post? Hell to the ni-zo...

The economy is bad, but not that bad..... yet....

I'm talking about regular staff engineers at a professional studio, music and post. Not head or lead engineers.

I don't know what a "base kinda fill-in engineer" is. But, if I get your drift, then $50/hr is appropriate for an IATSE guy with lots of good credits in the field. I've never been asked to provide someone like this.

95% of my clients bring in their own head engineer.

$50/hr=$100+k a year. Plus taxes. How many studios can afford to pay their engineers that much? That's a pie in the sky scenario, IMHO.

GC

[Joao B.]

Originally Posted by DaVogi

actually I don't know how this is handled in other countries but in austria, germany.. as a regular, unlimited time period employee you get two special payments in the year on top of your normal salary which equals roughly a months salary.
on in june thats called 'Urlaubsgeld' (vacation benefit)
on in november called 'Weihnachtsgeld' (christmas bonus)

also you have 5 weeks of paid vacation.

of course freelancer don't get that, even if they're working 12 months a year for a company as a fixed free.

In Portugal it's the same. An employee works 11 months and gets 14 payments (vacation and Christmas bonus).

If you fire someone you have to pay them a full month per each year of employment, so if you need to do the math for how much an employee costs per year it's actually 15 payments for 11 months of work.

[BHickey]

Short answer: Ask for the most they are willing to give you.

Long answer: It depends on a lot of things. Are you staff or just the "go-to". If you are on staff that implies that A: they are paying taxes on your pay (so that you don't have to), and B: they are invested in you just like you are invested in them. Ideally you are the lead or only engineer who gets first crack at all sessions. In that case I would try to estimate the number of hours you will likely be working within a given week/ month, and determine how much total money you plan or would want to make from this gig during that time, take the second number ($) and divide it by the first (hours) and add 5% and there is your fee.

If you are a "go-to-guy" the deal may not be as sweet. The title sounds more impressive, but is more slick talk then a business arrangement. I have found that "go-to-guy" usually implies that they don't have to hire you for all sessions, and when they don't feel like paying you or find someone who works cheaper, you can very easily loose "go-to" status. If this is all they are offering then I'd charge my normal freelance rate.

Now one thing that is a big game changer to me is the fact that you are stocking their studio with your gear. Are you going to allow them or anyone other then yourself to use your gear? That might be worth something to you beyond an hourly rate. Since you are bringing half the gear, you will be a partner in the studio, not just an employee. You probably won't be an equal partner since you are not as invested in the studio as they are (you won't share liabilities for the studio's expenses, and you can easily pack you gear up and go, while they can't just abandon the lease on the space), but you will be a partner no less. If it were me, I would want a percentage of all money made in the studio, even if I wasn't the one engineering the sessions.

Lastly, some mention has been made of hourly fee vs. percentage. It might be best to just pick one over the other, while you can have a sliding scale, if you make it too complicated, your just asking for arguments and infighting down the road. If you go with percentage, you get more for sessions that are charged higher, but you have to share the burden when you or someone reduces a clients rate or offers a discount. If you go hourly, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a up-charge for after-hours (whatever you determine they be), or weekends; however overtime won't be likely. You could also work out an arrangement where you make more with clients that you bring to the table rather then sessions they give to you, but again, this can sometimes cause some grey areas that can lead to arguments and ruining your arrangement.

End of the day, there is no standard arrangement. Keep your deal open to be updated as you and these studio owners enter this partnership and find out the costs and benefits to both of you.

[DaVogi]

great suggestions from Billy and the other guys!

[toneguru]

Originally Posted by BHickey

Short answer: Ask for the most they are willing to give you.

Long answer: It depends on a lot of things. Are you staff or just the "go-to". If you are on staff that implies that A: they are paying taxes on your pay (so that you don't have to), and B: they are invested in you just like you are invested in them. Ideally you are the lead or only engineer who gets first crack at all sessions. In that case I would try to estimate the number of hours you will likely be working within a given week/ month, and determine how much total money you plan or would want to make from this gig during that time, take the second number ($) and divide it by the first (hours) and add 5% and there is your fee.

If you are a "go-to-guy" the deal may not be as sweet. The title sounds more impressive, but is more slick talk then a business arrangement. I have found that "go-to-guy" usually implies that they don't have to hire you for all sessions, and when they don't feel like paying you or find someone who works cheaper, you can very easily loose "go-to" status. If this is all they are offering then I'd charge my normal freelance rate.

Now one thing that is a big game changer to me is the fact that you are stocking their studio with your gear. Are you going to allow them or anyone other then yourself to use your gear? That might be worth something to you beyond an hourly rate. Since you are bringing half the gear, you will be a partner in the studio, not just an employee. You probably won't be an equal partner since you are not as invested in the studio as they are (you won't share liabilities for the studio's expenses, and you can easily pack you gear up and go, while they can't just abandon the lease on the space), but you will be a partner no less. If it were me, I would want a percentage of all money made in the studio, even if I wasn't the one engineering the sessions.

Lastly, some mention has been made of hourly fee vs. percentage. It might be best to just pick one over the other, while you can have a sliding scale, if you make it too complicated, your just asking for arguments and infighting down the road. If you go with percentage, you get more for sessions that are charged higher, but you have to share the burden when you or someone reduces a clients rate or offers a discount. If you go hourly, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a up-charge for after-hours (whatever you determine they be), or weekends; however overtime won't be likely. You could also work out an arrangement where you make more with clients that you bring to the table rather then sessions they give to you, but again, this can sometimes cause some grey areas that can lead to arguments and ruining your arrangement.

End of the day, there is no standard arrangement. Keep your deal open to be updated as you and these studio owners enter this partnership and find out the costs and benefits to both of you.

Wow, who would expect such cogent insight coming from the nations capitol.

Great post Billy.

[PorpoiseMuffins]

Originally Posted by toneguru

You mention leaving some of your gear at the studio. What kind of gear?

Nothing real fancy. Under $10,000. No Distressors, unfortunately :P They just need to get the place running with something for now, and then once (if) things get moving we'd want to invest in some more gear.

Also, do they insure and maintain your equipment?

I have been told yes on the insurance. I'm sure that any maintenance would fall into my lap, however. At this point I'm not totally clear on whether anyone else would be using the gear, but it would likely be me 90% of the time.

If you are bringing in super prime pieces that are filling holes in the studio inventory I would consider leasing the gear to them at about 1/2 to 1 percent the gear value per month (they insure and maintain). The % rate depending on factors like how often you are working there and how often others will be using the gear plus the profit and cash flow of the studio.

Then keep your eng rate separate. If you are bringing in under $20k in gear it may not matter much.

I would imagine that there are many situations where down the line separating the two (gear and eng) is the way to go and also I'm sure that others have combined them and avoided hassles too. Obviously, everything is situational and often depends on the prior relationships etc.

Honestly, I find it interesting and informative to read all of the replies. Reminds me that the real world is anything but black and white and things are always changing.

Best of luck to you. You seem like a cool cat.

Sounds like I'm going to need it! Great info, thanks. Cheers.

Originally Posted by BHickey

. . . End of the day, there is no standard arrangement. Keep your deal open to be updated as you and these studio owners enter this partnership and find out the costs and benefits to both of you.

Thanks, Billy. Really, really helpful stuff. Now I just need to make sure I can remember all of it when it comes down to making the deal.

[Chroma Rec]

You're better off finding projects on your own and just renting a studio for a few days to track drums and finish the rest of the recording on your own system. I learned the hard way working for a well known "producer" who only paid me $4 an hour to produce, engineer and mix for their studio, while the room was making $1000 a day. I guess I was too naive. Anyway, after nearly 2 years I had enough and left because there was really no room for my career to grow there.
You gotta watch out for people like that in this industry. They expect you to give 110% 60 hours a week for peanuts. While they show up to work driving their fancy suv's and showing off their new wardrobes, you're showing up on the bus, looking raggedy and eating top ramen for lunch.
Although there are more studios now that are adapting to the idea of only collecting $200 to $300 a day for a neve/ssl/api/trident room. I think it's awesome because it throws alot of the B.S. of studio owners not being able to afford a good wage for the engineer out the window. Also, there are studios out there who pay their engineers $20 to $40 per hour you just gotta look for them and build up your networking.

I did a project in Spain for this same producer and all I got was $500 sure, they covered my hotel, flight and barely gave me a $20 per diem. I wanted to quit a month before this, but I had already committed myself to doing it and didn't want to put them in that situation at the last minute.

[yotonic]

Originally Posted by Oli_W

IMO charge whatever your freelance rates are... maybe less if you get "perks" (such as use of downtime etc).

Yes this is good advice and will expose their true intentions. Otherwise you are just kidding yourself and walking blindly and knowingly into a situation that probably isn't going to measure up to your silent hopes.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by Dan Korneff

Most places I know only pay minimum wage for staff. Anything above that is lucky

most minimum wage staff in NY aren't running sessions......all assistant engineers or general assistants, in my experience.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Many problems here for you.

$15-$18 is all the money for top rank-and-file studio engineers in L.A. $25 is for big shots in film/TV post with an impressive resume.

is this really true? very depressing if so......and maybe i'm way more spoiled than i realize.

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

$15-$18 is all the money for top rank-and-file studio engineers in L.A. $25 is for big shots in film/TV post with an impressive resume.

That figure is way off for post-production mixers. Base union rate for a film re-recording mixer is over $60/hr and the top people earn a lot more than that. Post is a different world to music.

MPEG- Union Rates

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Minimum wage is $8-something.

Typo: I meant $15-18 for top house-engineers.
Runners start at minimum.

GC

...

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by starcrash13

That figure is way off for post-production mixers. Base union rate for a film re-recording mixer is over $60/hr and the top people earn a lot more than that. Post is a different world to music.

MPEG- Union Rates

Yeah, And...???

I'm trying to find where I said "The base Union rate for Post-Production Re-Recording Mixers is $25/hr." Please link.

I DID post that guys with impressive post resumes and can get $25/hr working in music studios. Or even post studios, doing non-union work (OMG!). How do I know this??? Because that is what I pay them.

Trying to figure out what the your point is... Oh, an education on the "world of Post!" Gee, thanks!

BTW, I own a studio. that does a ton of post work...

GC

[Ward Pike]

The problem today:

Clients expect everything for less to nothing and engineers expect to get paid their weight in gold. No issue with paying someone what they're worth... but where's the money going to come from?

Studios with $500,000 to $1million invested are only getting between $35 and $50 an hour now. God, it's like 1985 but with the astronomical costs of 2012.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Yeah, And...???

I'm trying to find where I said "The base Union rate for Post-Production Re-Recording Mixers is $25/hr." Please link.

I DID post that guys with impressive post resumes and can get $25/hr working in music studios. Or even post studios, doing non-union work (OMG!). How do I know this??? Because that is what I pay them.

Trying to figure out what the your point is... Oh, an education on the "world of Post!" Gee, thanks!

BTW, I own a studio. that does a ton of post work...

GC

And Bridge is a top shelf room. I was making $30-35+ per hour non-union in the late 80's around LA in much smaller rooms than The Bridge, but I guess this is how it's gone in every field, not just music production. Hourly rates for non-union video production has been flat, or gone down, since the early-mid 90's too. Just the way it is. Everyone's dialing back because they have no choice.
If the ever increasing insurances, licenses, utilities, taxes, etc... don't get paid first, hourly rate that a room pays drops to $0 very quickly.

[suedesound]

when i was doing that the room was $300/day and i was $200-250/day based on 10 hours. shorter sessions (minimum 4 hours) i think i was 25/hr. overtime (rarely charged it) was 25/hr. i would adjust my rate based on the project (as would the studio) if it was a longer booking.

[starcrash13]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Yeah, And...???

I'm trying to find where I said "The base Union rate for Post-Production Re-Recording Mixers is $25/hr." Please link.

I DID post that guys with impressive post resumes and can get $25/hr working in music studios. Or even post studios, doing non-union work (OMG!). How do I know this??? Because that is what I pay them.

Trying to figure out what the your point is... Oh, an education on the "world of Post!" Gee, thanks!

BTW, I own a studio. that does a ton of post work...

GC

My mistake, Greg. The way I read your post it sounded like you were saying $25/hr was typical for an experienced post mixer doing professional work and I was trying to correct what I thought was bad information by providing a link to actual rates that I'm familiar with for film and TV work. I didn't intend to provoke such an angry and sarcastic reply.

It's a tragedy what has happened to the music business and I dread the same thing happening to film/TV. I transitioned from music to post so I could earn a living and raise a family in California.

[newdigitaluser]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

The problem today:

Clients expect everything for less to nothing and engineers expect to get paid their weight in gold. No issue with paying someone what they're worth... but where's the money going to come from?

Studios with $500,000 to $1million invested are only getting between $35 and $50 an hour now. God, it's like 1985 but with the astronomical costs of 2012.

and as they fail
noobs will buy the gear cheap
thinking they can make a go of their new studio
without wondering how or why the established studio with experienced engineers went belly up

[original_min]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Many problems here for you.

Your gear, as an employee, should not be integrated into your employer's business.

Greg

Right here is where it's at, believe me!
You obviously do not yet know the pain of trying to recover equipment locked in someone elses building after a relationship has turned sour.

Take your gear in with you in the morning, leave with it at night.
They can simply pay for you and all that encompasses.

What console do they have?