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Monitors for untreated room, desktop, really near-field
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halcyon
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#1
15th August 2011
Old 15th August 2011
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Monitors for untreated room, desktop, really near-field

Another active monitors thread, but hopefully more analytical.

Need a new set of monitors for really near-field (80-100 cm away) in 6.5m x 4.5m x 3.3m (height) room, which is currently totally untreated an will remain so for quite a while.

Placement will be on the desktop on both sides of the monitor, at similar distance (not behind). Mini-stands are a remote possibility. Most likely just standing on the desktop.

The monitors need to be extremely non-fatiguing, both in the presence region and in the high frequencies for longer listening sessions. Levels will NOT be loud (max 83dBA).

Sub is out of the question for now, just due to room issues alone, so a bit of low extensions wouldn't be a bad thing.

My budget is max 1100€ for a pair and I need to source in Europe. Can't audition almost anything, except Genelecs, due to low local availability. Will have to order sight unseen and unheard (sigh).

What I don't want :

- Rear ported monitors (e.g. Dynaudio BM5A series), unless they have superior desktop/shelf compensation

- Speakers with no magnetic shielding (Adam A7, A8, A5 or the X variants)

- Hard to get American brands like Quested already out of the price range or way too expensive here in Europe considering their performance due to low import volumes and high retail mark up.

- British monitors (dislike their style overall)

- Genelecs in general (this is the only brand I can actually audition extensively, it's not for me).

Now, I'm very limited as to my choices:

- Focal CMS (65 or 50)
- Neumann KH 120 A
- Anything else?

Unfortunately I have no way to audition these. So I'm soliciting comments, opinions and warnings

TL;DR : least fatiguing active monitors for long-duration low-volume monitoring at near-field on a desktop inside a really untreated room under 1100€ a pair?
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15th August 2011
Old 15th August 2011
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Personally, I would go for the Neumann KH120A


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15th August 2011
Old 15th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcyon View Post
The monitors need to be extremely non-fatiguing, both in the presence region and in the high frequencies for longer listening sessions. Levels will NOT be loud (max 83dBA).
Just get some NS-10s and tough it out like anyone else. Anything clear and bright enough to be useful will probably be fatiguing in an untreated room.

-R
halcyon
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Thanks for the opinions so far.

I'll take another look at the NS-10s as well.
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcyon View Post
Another active monitors thread, but hopefully more analytical.

Need a new set of monitors for really near-field (80-100 cm away) in 6.5m x 4.5m x 3.3m (height) room, which is currently totally untreated an will remain so for quite a while.

Placement will be on the desktop on both sides of the monitor, at similar distance (not behind). Mini-stands are a remote possibility. Most likely just standing on the desktop.

The monitors need to be extremely non-fatiguing, both in the presence region and in the high frequencies for longer listening sessions. Levels will NOT be loud (max 83dBA).

Sub is out of the question for now, just due to room issues alone, so a bit of low extensions wouldn't be a bad thing.

My [B budget is max 1100€ for a pair[/B] and I need to source in Europe. Can't audition almost anything, except Genelecs, due to low local availability. Will have to order sight unseen and unheard (sigh).

What I don't want :

- Rear ported monitors (e.g. Dynaudio BM5A series), unless they have superior desktop/shelf compensation

- Speakers with no magnetic shielding (Adam A7, A8, A5 or the X variants)

- Hard to get American brands like Quested already out of the price range or way too expensive here in Europe considering their performance due to low import volumes and high retail mark up.

- British monitors (dislike their style overall)

- Genelecs in general (this is the only brand I can actually audition extensively, it's not for me).

Now, I'm very limits my choices down to:

- Focal CMS (65 or 50)
- Neumann KH 120 A
- Anything else?

Unfortunately I have no way to audition these. So I'm soliciting comments, opinions and warnings

TL;DR : least fatiguing active monitors for long-duration low-volume monitoring at near-field on a desktop inside a really untreated room under 1100€ a pair?
Your ruling out all competition with the Focals in that price range. If this is inflexible, the Focals are a no brainer!
I have to say I was shocked and disappointed in the the Neumanns. I was almost convinced there was something wrong with them, but was assured that wasn't the case. For what it's worth.
#6
16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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I think there's no point in putting expensive monitors in an untreated room.

Get some cheap M-Audio Studiophiles and off you go.
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filipv View Post
I think there's no point in putting expensive monitors in an untreated room.

Get some cheap M-Audio Studiophiles and off you go.
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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As others have said, adding decent monitors to that size and shape room without treatment is in some sense wasting money, so treat the room as soon as you can.

As you can see from my Avatar I'm very happy with the KH 120's, neutral, smooth, balanced, but still detailed and revealing.

I'm extremely sensitive to ear fatigue, and these monitors are among the best I've used in that regard.

Might need a sub AFTER you treat the room depending on your taste / genre.
#9
16th August 2011
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I got fatique when I had the Focal CMS after 3/4 hour sessions, was annoying, and did not like their sound overall for me personally. SO changed to Adam A7X, can't be happier now. Tested them in untreated and treated room and my mixes always translate perfect, it's much easier to fix things in mixes over the CMS in electronic music for me personally. I don't get any fatique on the Adam's now they burned in good, I know couple other people who got fatique on Focal monitors also, it's personal though and each ones ear's are different, just something to consider.

If it was the Focal's or the Neumann's id take the Neumann's, id get these over the NS10's any day. (Get NS10 as second set for reference checking if needed)

Don't listen to people saying no point in expensive monitors in none treated room, this is often blown welll over the top on here. They can work perfectly fine in none treated room's. It's more about knowing the monitor and your abilities. There's many top producers who mixe/produce on top monitors in none treated rooms with amazing results, and I myself have produced very good mixes in none treated room's just because I got use to the monitors and knew what was required.

It's much better to have good monitors in none treated room then it is to have crap monitors in none treated room, a good monitor will allways shine over the cheaper monitor and as long as you know the monitor and your abilities your mixes will translate fine. (Also if the monitor is good with translating)

Of course it's always better to be treated then none treated but many work in none treated room's perfectly fine.

I am talking from personal experience here and from what others work with in none treated room's.
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16th August 2011
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I'm using Focal CMS 40's in a semi-treated room with KRK Ergo...totally non-fatiguing, great sound at lower volume levels. You'd need a sub for full range - but I'm recommending the CMS on their 'non-fatiguiness.'
halcyon
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filipv View Post
I think there's no point in putting expensive monitors in an untreated room.

Get some cheap M-Audio Studiophiles and off you go.
Fair point, but then I have to sell the M-Audios and buy a decent set, when I finally can afford to treat the room.

I'd rather just get a decent pair right away. Even the rudimentary desktop, shelf, bottom-end and HF extension correction switches are better than nothing, when playing inside a difficult room. Most cheap monitors completely lack these. As a back up I have a decent phase-linear EQ to do some minor corrections to dampen some of the worst room issues initially. Not the same as treating the room, but will have to do for now.

I'm lazy and too old. Can't be bother to keep upgrading all the time
#12
16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcyon
Even the rudimentary desktop, shelf, bottom-end and HF extension correction switches are better than nothing
The KH120's do have limited low, mid and high correction switches - 4 position IIRC.
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16th August 2011
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I'm wondering how much benefit there would be to invest in a DSP solution for these kinds of 'i have an untreated room and do not have the possibility to treat it any while soon' situations? (like eg KRK ergo, Genelec,...)


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16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcyon View Post
- British monitors (dislike their style overall)
All your reasoning is sound but that one!! I thought you wanted to get the job done? Beggars can't be choosers and picking monitors because of their styling is weird. Mine are ugly - but there's nothing sub £50k to beat them!!

AE22s - yes, UK. But they fit everything else you want.
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16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadPoet View Post
I'm wondering how much benefit there would be to invest in a DSP solution for these kinds of 'i have an untreated room and do not have the possibility to treat it any while soon' situations? (like eg KRK ergo, Genelec,...)


Herwig
I use the Ergo in a small semi-treated room - it's great...my mixes have improved and i'm enjoying making music more (as I can hear it); but treating at least the reflections points for monitoring is a MUST...it makes a huge difference...more than the Ergo alone IMO. I would have gone for the Genelec DSP system but it's out of my price range.
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16th August 2011
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Why can't you make some very simple 703-fiberglass cloth covered panels for the two side wall reflection points at the very least? It's so easy and will benefit your purchase more than anything else you can do.
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halcyon
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
All your reasoning is sound but that one!! I thought you wanted to get the job done? Beggars can't be choosers and picking monitors because of their styling is weird. Mine are ugly - but there's nothing sub £50k to beat them!!

AE22s - yes, UK. But they fit everything else you want.
Ah, sorry, didn't mean the visual style. I meant their voicing. I've heard some of the non-expensive brits and the mids are not just for me. Something about the placement of x-over in the presence region, that faint ghost of the BBC dip and the rest. It's just not for me. Many like them and I respect those opinions. Perhaps if I could actually audition some of the more newer / recommended models, I might change my opinion
halcyon
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwagner View Post
Why can't you make some very simple 703-fiberglass cloth covered panels for the two side wall reflection points at the very least? It's so easy and will benefit your purchase more than anything else you can do.
This is actually something I'm already looking into as I write, so a good point. Thanks.

I'm also thinking of something on the monitoring desk, but that's a topic of another thread, in another forum
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16th August 2011
Old 16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halcyon View Post
Ah, sorry, didn't mean the visual style. I meant their voicing. I've heard some of the non-expensive brits and the mids are not just for me. Something about the placement of x-over in the presence region, that faint ghost of the BBC dip and the rest. It's just not for me. Many like them and I respect those opinions. Perhaps if I could actually audition some of the more newer / recommended models, I might change my opinion
Ah - yes I know what you mean. Right.

At the price point you mention I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the AE22. They use the same tweeter as the fantastic at any price (under £10k) Sigma 6.2 and employ similar time domain characteristics. The crossover is at 2khz BUT I'd say that any two way design isn't going to be much different - there are a few out there 1.5khz which might be more to your liking; but I find lower crossovers a bit waring. Look into some three way solutions ? I guess the price becomes an issue then!

You'd like my monitors - the crossover on the high end is 11khz!!
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16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I'm using Focal CMS 40's in a semi-treated room with KRK Ergo...totally non-fatiguing, great sound at lower volume levels. You'd need a sub for full range - but I'm recommending the CMS on their 'non-fatiguiness.'
Fully! I had A7s and they were much more fatiguing than the CMS range.. have the CMS65 now and they are sweet..strange well each to there own, but CMS are very unfatiguing if i can say that!
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16th August 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrintact View Post
Fully! I had A7s and they were much more fatiguing than the CMS range.. have the CMS65 now and they are sweet..strange well each to there own, but CMS are very unfatiguing if i can say that!

As said for me the CMS where very fatiguing, while the A7X are not fatiguing at all (Different monitor to the A7, much improved in every way) Though as said above everyone has different ear's so will experience things a bit different, this is why it's very important to try before you buy.
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