Who's in charge: the promoter, bands, or engineer (aka Should charity begin at home?)

[nicpope]

People working for free goes downhill quickly really often. But also some of the brightest moments of my career so far have been for no money and i've gotten to meet amazing people.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by 4 the Max

1. According to my religious values, I do some pro bono work for worthy charities each year. I do location multi-track audio synced to 2 camera video and hi-res still photography. A Battle of the Bands would raise funds for a worthy local charity. The bands raised from good quality unsigned to very high quality signed bands in the punk, rock, metal, and pop genres.

2. Although I would not be paid for my location work, I could commercially license audio/video/photos to the bands and use them on my own website and social media for promotional use. I would paid to give the winning band some studio time.

3. The The show promoter for a charity contracted a local club. Both he and the club owner no nothing about audio (live sound, recording, etc.) I spec'd out the club ahead of time to find out the club has no live sound reinforcement. Both the promoter and club owner though the PA for the DJ booth were for the live sound.

4. I told the promoter to hire and live sound company, at least an engineer, if I supplied the live sound gear (which I have 2 mains, 2 power amps, 3 floor monitors, 2 dbx graphic EQ's, 8 channels compression, reverb, 16 channel mixer, and 24 channel 100' stage snake).

The promoter said that he already spent a couple hundred on promoting the event and didn't want to spend more on an engineer. He got his son's 20 yr. friend who had a course in GarageBand and Logic to be the engineer - his first gig will be a 11 different bands - what a way to start!

5. If I didn't agree to provide the live sound reinforcement besides recording, the charity would have no show. The club was to receive a percentage of gate of $15 adults, $10 students.

6. I had the bands send me their instrumentation list. Many of the bands each wanted to use their own gear (2 guitar amps, bass amp, drum kit) because they each thought that it was the best, THEIR sound, and didn't want the other bands to use their equipment so they'd have more chance to win or afraid that it would get wrecked by another band.

7.There was only 20 minutes for each band with 5 minute change-outs between bands. I got the promoter to agree that the 20 year old live sound guy bring his bass amp, 2 guitar amps, and his son bring the drum kit that all bands would use. There would be no changeouts of backline.

THE PROMOTER EMAILED ALL THE BANDS NOT TO BRING ANY BACKLINE EXCEPT CYMBALS.

8. All bands responded except one. I set up channel lists. The guitarist, vocalists, guitars, drummer would always stand in the same place, and just plugin. I made a channel list indicating which channels to mute for the newbie engineer.

9. The newbie engineer met me in the studio 2 days before the show where I setup the gear like it was real live show. I showed him how to make cable connections, EQ the setup and run the board.

10. On the day of the show, we arrived 4 hours early and had everything setup according to plan. The setup was checked for levels, EQ with no issues.

11. The band who never responded showed up 45 minutes before the show was to begin with 2 complete drum kits, a superlarge keyboard, and bass amps, guitar amps. They were obviously "friends" with son of the promoter. They started whining to the promoter how lame the bass/2 guitar, and drum kit was and they had "real" gear.

12. I told them that everything was setup already. It was already agreed upon that there were to be no changeouts to make easy for the live sound guy, and give each band 20 minutes to play. They said that they were REAL sound engineers and could setup everything, no problem. I said "NO." It's done. They started to move my PA mains, monitors, take out the drum kit, all the amps, anyways.

13. I went to complain to the promoter. He said "The show is for the kids. Let them have some fun. It's what THEY want to do. If it flops, it will be on them, anyways. It's all for their good time." I said good time or not, you (the promoter) already agreed to the setup. The promoter said that he changed his mind. I was really upset and told him that it was really rude of him to agree to one thing, have me set up everything that works for free, on my time and on my dime, and you can't change a sound setup 15 minutes before a show and expect everything to work again for 11 different bands with a newbie engineer, especially. I said that live sound is not political, it's technical.

14. To make a long story short, the sound and event was a chaotic disaster. The signed band wanted a soundcheck (duh!) Immediately, there was feedback. The newbie engineer abandoned his post on the board and went off to chill with his friends in the bands. The A#@HOLE band who said that they knew so much about live sound came crying to me, "where do you control the gain? What do we do about the feedback? Help us please!"

I told them that they were so rude to come in and takeover the show just to please themselves; after all, each band only gets 20 minutes to play, it wasn't there whole show. It was unfair of them to do this to the other bands and me when everything was setup to go before they showed up.

15. It was now 30 minutes after the starting time, and different "engineers" from each band went to the live sound rig to try to figure it out. I was busy setting up my video, photo, and multi-track rig because the A#@HOLE band wasted my precious time preventing me from doing what I was originally only going to do at the event.

16. Then the promoter, a wealthy entrepreneur, said he'd give me $50 (he didn't even want to share a 14' truck rental with me) to fix the sound. I said that I told you to hire a professional live sound engineer in the first place (I was thinking of when Steve Martin in "Father of the Bride" has his 10 year old son and friends park all the cars all over the lawns so he can save money), out of the goodness of my heart, I set it up with my gear for free, and against my advice YOU decided to change everything.

17.During the show, the A#@HOLE band pulled and switched cables on the stage snake; removed my mics and left them on the stage when they had to setup for THEIR SHOW. I was running around frantically trying to grab my mics and put them away while telling them not to touch MY gear. Something, they took to great offense - how dare I tell them not to touch anything - their constant refrain was, it will sound better!

18. I told the promoter that if I don't get all of MY removed mics back, I will shut down the sound. He said nothing at all except at the end of the entire show - plus never made a public thank you to me or the newbie engineer for at least setting up. He was too busy glad-handing the sports team and rock star celebrities that he got to come to his charity gig. Ditto, from the Charity. None of their reps said nothing to me at show, publically or privately, nor via email.

19. At least he made an announcement requesting volunteers to help load my truck. I got home at 2 AM and up at 6 AM to unpack less I get charged another rental day for the truck. The newbie engineer and promoter's son were fast asleep in the comfy bed. A nice neighbor help me unload the large, heavy stuff. I still got charged another day since I was 15 minutes over.

Ironically, one of the band members of the A#@HOLE was wearing a t-shirt that read "He likes it in the butt."

The really deserving bands one 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. The band that I wanted to win, did win. I give the A#@HOLE band last place for disrespect to me and the other bands - and I said so to the promoter.

Who's in charge: the promoter, the bands, or the audio professional?

As well, has anyone else done charity work? Do they just treat you like SH-T
'cause they got something for nothing?

Please provide feedback despite that we had way too much on the sound system at the show.

no
charities pay their honchos big bux
why should I help them get rich

yes they all do things like that

the promotor should be in charge
and i would get guarantees wrt procedures before agreeing to anything

you should charge a BIG BUNCH OF BUX with an agreement to donate some back to them *IF* they dont screw you over like that. nobody appreciates free.
they value you wrt how much you make them pay.

[therealbigd]

Christ on a rope if you released that as a book it would need to be in volumes.

And you could have just written "I did an amateur show for some people who didn't have a clue" and the rest is pretty standard.

Don't worry you're not alone it happens to everyone, not just charity gigs but anything run by somebody who doesn't know the score. And that doesn't have to mean small artists... I've done gigs for arena-filling artists where the job has turned out to be a complete cake and arse party.

So, in future, just either say "I am the sound company and you will pay me $500 up front or it's a no show" or "Hire in a professional sound company complete with kit and engineers for whatever it costs" and don't let yourself get dragged down the favour route because it only ever costs you money.

•*I have done a gig for a stadium-size artist where the guy in charge didn't have a clue and no chain motors were ordered, cue every light, speaker and black tab hand pulleyed to the truss.
•*I have done sound for a major corporate event where I told them well in advance that I needed 2x 32A single phase supplies for my amp racks and they gave me a room that had 8 13A sockets and a load of home made widowmakers.
•*I have done sound light staging and rigging for a fashion event where the 'producer' insisted on hiring the van. We specified LWB Transit or bigger (as the Steeldeck stage pieces are 2.5m x 1.5m), we got a SWB vehicle which could only fit 4 bits of steeldeck at a time and whatever we could lift on top, meaning including flight cases of lights, sound, ground support truss and 17 bits of steeldeck, we needed 8 runs in the van. Add to that a supplier who closed at 1200 and a venue that opened at 1200, we had to drop all the gear in somebody's garage to hold it until the venue opened, meaning 16 journeys on the load in.

And it goes on.

So don't worry, you're not the first, you're not the last, just a warm welcome to the live events business. If you're not tough enough to handle it without a 25-page rant each time, find a new job.

[s2_Audio]

The answer to who is in charge is simply answered by who pays the bill. The one taking money out of their life to put into yours for the service you provided in trade is in charge.

Everything else is fodder, remember the NG point:
Perception is reality, only the facts are negotiated

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by s2_Audio

The answer to who is in charge is simply answered by who pays the bill. The one taking money out of their life to put into yours for the service you provided in trade is in charge.

Everything else is fodder, remember the NG point:
Perception is reality, only the facts are negotiated

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

but if he works for free
he is the one putting money into the project
so he should be in charge

however
it is a sucker deal to ever do freebies for a charity
they use up to 80% of the money on themselves
pay their execs big bux


charge them full rate plus more
donate some back if they dont cause problems

[s2_Audio]

Customer Service is the bottom line.

Know where you are now and where you want to be tomorrow.

This may answer some of the questions at hand ...you may not like some of the answers.

Ninja Gandhi's Customer Service 4 Recording Studios

[morrock]

I would've treated the band exactly as they treated you. Tell them good luck sound checking on their own. When the show starts announce "Give it up for The (insert crappy band name)!" And time it for 20 minutes. Hope everyone watching them enjoys the wall of feedback. That or turn off the mics on the backline and have them play with just stage sound. 20 minutes is almost over? Tell the they get 1 last song, mute everything after they play it.

Take some time to set up for the more courteous bands, then give each their 20 minute slot. First band sounds like a bunch of people using instruments for the first time, each band after get's a professional mix.

And yeah I've done close to the same thing. In high school, had a student production with one absolute a**hole. Whenever he went up to a mic, we muted it. Everyone at the sound booth laughed, everyone else in the production thought it helped, and the faculty was always "looking the other way" when it happened because of how much everyone hated him.

It might not be the most professional thing to do, but I never considered free very professional. I'll multiply the courtesy bands give me, if they're even slightly nice, even a fake forced nice, I'm the kindest guy in the world. I'm not afraid to boo a band who's taking 40 minutes to sound check (happened) or yelling for them to finish already when their set time was 30 minutes, and they're 45 minutes in with another sheet of songs on their set (happened).

[HLD]

Your story is not uncommon. I´ve been in the live industry the last decade, and I get these kind of gigs at least twice a year. However, I´ve gotten very good at recognizing them in advance, and thus I turn those gigs down. If for some reason I can not, it´s a simple set of rules the promoter needs to follow. He needs to understand that this is how we are going to run his event, because this is how it will be possible to get good results. And, if he changes his mind during the event.. Who says you can´t change your mind about supplying all the gear? Pull your stuff down and get out of there.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by s2_Audio

The answer to who is in charge is simply answered by who pays the bill.

But equally, just because you are in charge, it doesn't mean that you can simply pull all the strings and insist that your contractors do not follow their set protocol.

This is why contracts, despite seeming like an unfriendly way of saying "I don't trust you" are an absolute necessity.