Adding Snare Sample to Original Snare

[JB872]

For those of you who are adding a snare sample to the original snare, are you simply combining the two for a certain sound or are you gating and compressing one for the crack and using the other for the body of the sound. Up until now, I've always replaced the tp snare and left the bottom to keep it sounding somewhat real. I know there's no rules on how to do it, but hearing some other approaches would be helpful.

Jason

[Curtis Franklin]

gating and compressing is useful, but dont discount radical eq to get the flavor that you want.

most of the time i will leave the original snare alone (or replace it with all solid hits from the same performance if it is shakey) and just process the blended sample for "more of" whatever i find is lacking.

[Earwitness]

I havn't had much luck replacing snare so now I just go through the motions to actualy bring in drummers who have good snares and can tune them up. Then I mic top, bottom and one more on the side like a condenser TLM103. I'm finding I can't live without my replaced kick but its just not the same on snare. I even did some pretty sucsessful tom replacment recently but snare is a pita...
my2

[Gregg Sartiano]

"I can teach somebody how to get a great snare sound. I can't teach somebody what a great snare sound IS." -- Dave Pensado

Sample addition & mixing is a artform just as picking/tuning/maintaining a SD within a drumkit is. There is no formula.

With that in mind, I hardly ever pre-plan to use a bunch of FX with a sample. I'm more apt to pick samples which are already doing what I intend them to do.

Then these can be sent straight to master or through a SD bus (which includes samples & SD mics) heading to the drum bus. This is where delay compensation comes in very handy.

I'll usually trigger SD reverb from the most neutral sample in a given session, not from SD top or SD sub. That's just me, and it's not a 100% rule.

WATCH PHASE everywhere -- you're reversing SD bottom already, right? Zoom way in to line those samples up -- if they're hitting opposite (phase) from SD top, you may have to invert the samples. Try making 4 or 5 line up & phase match (just at & near the beginning of the sample is fine) and group 'em -- line them up with SD top and then blend in the mix, but don't be committed to using any or all -- add to eliminate deficiencies or push cymbals back (samples have no cymbal bleed). A bonus is that you can use more aggressive parallel compression on a SD sub or drum sub when samples are involved, because the cymbal bleed (HH!) won't "squash" up with the compression floor.

Also, if you're using delay compensation in PT, you can send the samples to SD sub--> Drum sub and also dry to master by control-clicking the output and adding an A 1-2 output to the bus out already there (it'll look like +Bus 1-2 after you add). Nothing will make a squashed SD poke through aggressive master compression faster.

[T. Morgan]

When I've had tracks where the snare just didn't have the magic, I've played or had the drummer play just the snare on a new track. It's nice cuz you can use the room and/or compression to get just the sound you need. But it takes about 20 minutes to an hour to get all the snare hits lined up.... it beats the hell out of having a bad snare sound or wasting time trying to eq/compress/gate/etc the original.

[RockNashville]

I'm a drummer producer/engineer and let me just get on a soap box for a sec and say the problem is usually the drummer. Not just knowing how to tune a drum, but being in the game enough to keep the drum in tune for the whole session. Then hitting the drum in the same place all the time is really going to matter. Also let's not forget that it's really the drummer's responsibility to "mix" the kit first. If he beats the hell out of the hi hat with his dominant right hand and wusses out on the snare drum, you're going to have a problem.

Sometimes I get samples from that drummer that day on that session to use, it's usually easier to paste one of those in than some random sample. Plus it's a big deal to find a sample that really works with the sound of the rest of the kit. Usually ALL the drums are in ALL the drum mics no matter how hard you try to isolate stuff.

Here's what sucks. Sometimes to keep a client, you've got to let them try out their lousy ass drummer. I f'king hate that. I feel like if I tell the client up front that there's no way in hell we're using their sucky drummer, then I'll lose the gig. So I waste three days cutting bad drums, two days editing them, then a half hour or so re - recording it with myself or another drummer. Oh, how much time is wasted in trying to keep the client happy. The older I get, the less I try to play that game, but it's still a problem.

So whether you're a drummer or not, it's okay for you as an engineer or producer to tell the drummer to hit the drum in the same place all the time, and to balance out the kit. And it's also okay for you to tune drums and turn knobs on guitar amps.

[JB872]

Thanx for the suggestions so far.

Does anyone ever gate->eq->compress the original so its just the crack and than blend that in with the sample (for the body)? That way most of the bleed from the snare mic is gone but some of the original feel is still there.

[Curtis Franklin]

you should work with the bleed that you have.

that being said.... i usually do the opposite: leave the og and then trash the sample.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by JB872

Up until now, I've always replaced the tp snare and left the bottom to keep it sounding somewhat real.

I never did understand this...if you are using the sample from a real drummer (i.e. recording a hit in your studio from a variety of people and snares) then it should sound 'real', because it is real. It just so happens that the sample will hit like a man (if the drummer can't hit, otherwise there isn't much point of a sample, unless the snare drum just isn't right for the song).

[absrec]

Originally Posted by RockNashville

Not just knowing how to tune a drum, but being in the game enough to keep the drum in tune for the whole session. Then hitting the drum in the same place all the time is really going to matter. Also let's not forget that it's really the drummer's responsibility to "mix" the kit first. If he beats the hell out of the hi hat with his dominant right hand and wusses out on the snare drum, you're going to have a problem.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by RockNashville

Here's what sucks. Sometimes to keep a client, you've got to let them try out their lousy ass drummer. I f'king hate that. I feel like if I tell the client up front that there's no way in hell we're using their sucky drummer, then I'll lose the gig. So I waste three days cutting bad drums, two days editing them, then a half hour or so re - recording it with myself or another drummer. Oh, how much time is wasted in trying to keep the client happy. The older I get, the less I try to play that game, but it's still a problem.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

Originally Posted by RockNashville

So whether you're a drummer or not, it's okay for you as an engineer or producer to tell the drummer to hit the drum in the same place all the time, and to balance out the kit. And it's also okay for you to tune drums and turn knobs on guitar amps.

Here the problem. Every time I tell one of these lousy drummers to hit consistently, it almost makes them worse. One time, I told this drummer to hit his cymbals softer because he was riding crashes the whole song. So he started hitting not only his cymbals softer, but his drums softer as well. When I told him to hit his drums harder, well.... you get the picture. It's like suggesting that a singer change their style or (god forbid) practice some mic control. You usually end up wishing you'd never said a thing.

Those be my 2 pennies, dog.

[Stick]

I usually start with what I've got, do the usual dig out what I can using gates, ridiculous compression, eqing one duplicate for thump, one for crack, etc... then, bring on the samples... if the original really sucks, I'll just totally replace it with something totally different. I've got other specific samples I just use for thump or just for width if I just need to help out the original. I've added eq'ed kick drums to beef up snares before.

Sometimes when I'm going to use one of the good hits from the song I'll do some processing (eq, compression, ambience) as I bounce it out.

I've been using BFD to make samples that are tuned to what the original was, but sound way better. You can also dial in the ambience with the sample if you need some width from ambience.

BFD is handy for replacing toms too... you can easily match the tuning of the originals, or tune 'em to the song like they should've been originally or whatever.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Stick

I've been using BFD to make samples that are tuned to what the original was, but sound way better. You can also dial in the ambience with the sample if you need some width from ambience.

BFD is handy for replacing toms too... you can easily match the tuning of the originals, or tune 'em to the song like they should've been originally or whatever.

A bit off topic, but when you're using a snare sample from BFD can you use the anti machine gun setting that the program offers?

[JB872]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

I never did understand this...if you are using the sample from a real drummer (i.e. recording a hit in your studio from a variety of people and snares) then it should sound 'real', because it is real. It just so happens that the sample will hit like a man (if the drummer can't hit, otherwise there isn't much point of a sample, unless the snare drum just isn't right for the song).

Hey NathanEldred

What about when a roll comes up and you're using the same snare drum sample. Doesn't it sound a little fake then? Or do you replace the snare with a mulitple of hits from the same snare with different velocities?

[JB872]

Originally Posted by pumadrum

most of the time i will leave the original snare alone (or replace it with all solid hits from the same performance if it is shakey) and just process the blended sample for "more of" whatever i find is lacking.

Hey pumadrum

Are you replacing the shakey hits with solid hits from the same section of the performance or are you using one good hit for the entire performance? My guess is that you replace section by section due to the hi-hat bleed.

[Methlab]

Hey NathanEldred

What about when a roll comes up and you're using the same snare drum sample. Doesn't it sound a little fake then? Or do you replace the snare with a mulitple of hits from the same snare with different velocities?

I use drumagog to avoid this issue. DGog allows you to blend the sample in how you want it. What i do is loop the part with the roll and adjust until it sounds natural. pretty easy, and also a good place to start when you put in a snare sample. once it works on that roll, it will blend in nicely with the single hits too. if for some reason it doesn't, you could automate.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Methlab

I use drumagog to avoid this issue. DGog allows you to blend the sample in how you want it. What i do is loop the part with the roll and adjust until it sounds natural. pretty easy, and also a good place to start when you put in a snare sample. once it works on that roll, it will blend in nicely with the single hits too. if for some reason it doesn't, you could automate.

Hey Methlab

Thanx for the advice. I have drumagog and will definitely try it out when I get some better samples . I'm thinking about picking up BFD and using their samples for replacement. Is anyone using BFD for replacement and if so what's the best way to do it?

Jason

[Stick]

Originally Posted by JB872

A bit off topic, but when you're using a snare sample from BFD can you use the anti machine gun setting that the program offers?

Well, not exactly... I guess you could, but I just use BFD for creating a sample that I'll use with SoundReplacer in ProTools. But, if you were doing it by hand, you could work up a number of differing samples and alternate through them so they weren't so consistant. I never bother with that though. I have used SoundReplacer's 3 velocity layers in the past though... using a softer, mid, and hard hit... but generally in rock or pop stuff, it's overkill.

[Gregg Sartiano]

If I'm pasting samples in one-by-one (which is the only way I do it anymore -- I've never used Drumagog, and I haven't used SoundReplacer in 2 years at least), I'll paste in SD's under the repeated notes and then go back and do crossfades between the samples.

The secret is to use the "None" option (for link crossfade) and set it so the "In" fade is 100% (i.e.: no fade at all) and the out fade is the longest-lasting one (i.e.: the highest curve).

Then, if you have 3 or more samples in a row, you have to zoom in (not all the way, but enough) and do your fades between the 1st two as close to the beginning of the third sample as you can get.

If there are dynamics involved in the repeated SD, use the "Gain" function in Audiosuite to visually match the samples to the dynamic contour of the repeated notes. Typically this will involve negative gain settings (turn down, not up). Just make sure you're gaining the WHOLE SAMPLE and not the short edit, or else there will be not enough audio for the crossfade to render properly.

This works great with toms, too.

If it's mixed in nicely with the mic'd sounds, it'll pump up the drumkit sound transparently, assuming you're trying to hide the sample. If you're doing industrial or hard-edged metal, you can bring it up and get that bigger-and-more-precise-than-life thing going, too.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Stick

Well, not exactly... I guess you could, but I just use BFD for creating a sample that I'll use with SoundReplacer in ProTools. But, if you were doing it by hand, you could work up a number of differing samples and alternate through them so they weren't so consistant. I never bother with that though. I have used SoundReplacer's 3 velocity layers in the past though... using a softer, mid, and hard hit... but generally in rock or pop stuff, it's overkill.

I'm using Sonar 4 and I'm not sure if it has a program like soundreplacer or not. Up until now I've been extracting the timing from the original, which takes note of the velocities and timing, and than stores the data on clipboard. I can than paste the clipboard data on to a midi track and open a dxi plugin called Velocity (Project 5) that I have all my drum kits stored in. Would I be able to do the same kind of thing with the BFD dxi plugin?

[Methlab]

keep in mind BFD uses a fair amount of CPU..you'd want to bounce those tracks down. Also I have never used it for sound replacement myself..I would imagine youd have to program it to hit the drums with either a trigger or using MIDI. anyone know an easier way (if there is one?)

[Stick]

Originally Posted by JB872

I'm using Sonar 4 and I'm not sure if it has a program like soundreplacer or not. Up until now I've been extracting the timing from the original, which takes note of the velocities and timing, and than stores the data on clipboard. I can than paste the clipboard data on to a midi track and open a dxi plugin called Velocity (Project 5) that I have all my drum kits stored in. Would I be able to do the same kind of thing with the BFD dxi plugin?

No idea... my expertise runs out after ProTools and Logic. Sounds like it could work, if the timing is dead on. What I'm doing is a lot closer to pasting by hand than trying to get BFD to replay the part.

[Angus_FX]

I'm using Sonar 4 and I'm not sure if it has a program like soundreplacer or not. Up until now I've been extracting the timing from the original, which takes note of the velocities and timing, and than stores the data on clipboard. I can than paste the clipboard data on to a midi track and open a dxi plugin called Velocity (Project 5) that I have all my drum kits stored in. Would I be able to do the same kind of thing with the BFD dxi plugin?

Similar, yes -- in that aspect, BFD works much like Velocity, except that (on the plus side) the sounds in BFD are much higher quality than those in Velocity, but (on the minus side) you can't load your own sounds in to BFD -- you're limited to building kits with the supplied kit pieces or the expansion packs.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Angus_FX

Similar, yes -- in that aspect, BFD works much like Velocity, except that (on the plus side) the sounds in BFD are much higher quality than those in Velocity, but (on the minus side) you can't load your own sounds in to BFD -- you're limited to building kits with the supplied kit pieces or the expansion packs.

Hi Angus_FX

Would you recommend I open BFD up as a dxi or rewire? I've never used rewire but someone was telling me I can send each part of the BFD drum kit to its own track. That would be great if I could

[Angus_FX]

Use it as a DXi, that will allow you to send each drum to a different track.

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Angus_FX

Use it as a DXi, that will allow you to send each drum to a different track.

If that's the case, what would I use rewire for?

[Angus_FX]

In this case, you probably wouldn't need to. ReWire is generally used in situations where the plug-in can't deliver multiple tracks to the host because of limitations in the host itself (for example in Pro Tools 6.2 and 6.4).

[taturana]

i am using drumagog for sample replacement... years ago i would do it with an alesis d4 and adat and a early daw version... or trigger samples on the D4 while mixing OTB...

now it's much easier...

[pan]

Back to some general thoghts about the SOUND you use to double the Snare:

For more Tone i use a ringing snare tuned to the song, not necessarily at the same pitch as the original, but IN TUNE to the original!!!

Sometimes all you need is "gated noise" ...

For Punch nothing beats the originals (Linn, DMX, 909, 808)

Even low in the track added snares can create a more steady base for the live performance.


But having any kind of room signal of the performance to blend the samples with is worth more than a large sample-library



I'm stoned....lol

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by RockNashville

Here's what sucks. Sometimes to keep a client, you've got to let them try out their lousy ass drummer. I f'king hate that. I feel like if I tell the client up front that there's no way in hell we're using their sucky drummer, then I'll lose the gig.

George Martin didn't want to use Ringo at first... and used a session drummer instead without even hearing Ringo for their first recordings together. I guess it happens to the best of us.

[Led]

I've got a bunch of snare hits I've recorded over the years in different stairwells/halls/rooms and often I'll trim the hit off and just trigger the room ambience to add to a live snare. It can work well also....