Mic'ing a Guitar Cab with a single SM57

[bryan k]

Like everyone who gets so fessed up in frustration about finding the "sweet spot" on mic'ing a guitar cab......


One thing that has bothered me, is when people say they have a set of headphones and a guitar amp CRANKED....then they move the mic around till they can hear the loudest HISS and thats the "sweet spot".

Isnt the loudest HISS always coming from the center of the speaker......which is always too bright to record with? Essentially this method should be used to find the BRIGHTEST spot on your speaker, seems to me anyways.

i want to hear your guys/gals tips -n- tricks in finding it (sweet spot)......

[bryan k]

Actually, lets try this.......

heres a attachment of a diagram of a Guitar cab Speaker, and a SM57. Take this image and re-use it and show us all where you typically like the sm57 placed (distance, axis, angle, etc)........and why.

Heres mine



Its not exactly at where the dustcap and cone meet, but slightly further out, about 1" away in distance. No special angles.....just pointing straight. It has just enough brightness without sounding too "ice pick", and proximity effect is enough to sound beefy, but not muddy.

[Ed Zeppeli]

Interesting. I usually end up in the same place. I'd be interested to hear input on your hissy sweet-spot theory.

[Aeolian]

An e609 I can usually get away with halfway out from the center. A 57 usually has to go close to the edge. Or angled towards the cone edge.

I've also done angled across the cone at the opposite face. A darker smoother sound. Kills some fizz on gainer sounds. Or couple with something out from the can more on axis to add back in some highs.

[Silent Sound]

Perhaps I shouldn't post this since I never seem to be able to get a good guitar cab sound out of a single SM57. I use an Audix i5 and a ribbon about 3-5 feet out for this job. In any case that's where I usually end up placing the mic. It's probably pointed at the same spot, I just position it so that it's lined up on the opposite side and point it across the path of the dust cap.

Also, I think the idea with the white noise is to capture the right tone of white noise, and not get the loudest white noise. Otherwise, you're right, you'll get a brittle sound. If you listen to the white noise, you should hear a phasing type of sound as the various frequencies shift. Of course with different speakers, amps, guitars, players and songs, anything and everything can change.

[bryan k]

Interesting thought here i just had.....

What if i uploaded another image showing all the most popular mics.....kind of like a 'mic locker".....and we can cut/paste them on the speaker to show people our techniques with all these different mics.....visually.....

????

We can call it the "Ultimate Cab Mic'ing Thread"

[Retinal]

It really depends on the type of sound you're after, and of course on the whole rig, but a very important thing that really change the positioning in the case you describe (only one 57) is the speaker.
Given the same guitar/head/cabinet/mic what speaker you're gonna mic' makes a big difference. V30 vs GT75 or Greenback and the sweetspot is gonna be in a totally different ehm.. spot
GT75 can get a bit fizzy with the 57, V30 are easier, Hot100 have lotsa lows, Greenback can be a lil spikey in the mids.. etc..

The dustcap/cone crossing is a good starting point usually, distance from the cone is also very important, the 57 can bring up some mud if the distance ain't right or sound too thin.

My spin off on the positioning you posted is: rotate the mic so that the capsule is not looking at the center of the cone but is *parallel* to the cone wall, then move it holding that angle form the center to the edge.

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by Retinal

It really depends on the type of sound you're after, and of course on the whole rig, but a very important thing that really change the positioning in the case you describe (only one 57) is the speaker.
Given the same guitar/head/cabinet/mic what speaker you're gonna mic' makes a big difference. V30 vs GT75 or Greenback and the sweetspot is gonna be in a totally different ehm.. spot
GT75 can get a bit fizzy with the 57, V30 are easier, Hot100 have lotsa lows, Greenback can be a lil spikey in the mids.. etc..

The dustcap/cone crossing is a good starting point usually, distance from the cone is also very important, the 57 can bring up some mud if the distance ain't right or sound too thin.

My spin off on the positioning you posted is: rotate the mic so that the capsule is not looking at the center of the cone but is *parallel* to the cone wall, then move it holding that angle form the center to the edge.

Show us.....

Alot of people might Know know what you mean by "parallel to cone wall"

[lynyrd]

I position my 57 perpendicular to the cone, closer to the dust cap than the edge. If it sounds not too great, I move it until it works. Kinda unscientific I know, but a blasting Marshall ( and I like the sound of an amp moving air and walls!) is really hard to judge while wearing headphones and standing right in front of it! As for why perpendicular to the cone? I read a long time ago that Edward Van Halen did it that way on Van Halen 1. And to me, that is the ultimate rock guitar tone. I do also position a 421 on another speaker in a similar fashion and blend the two, but I could still get a cool tone with just a 57.

[Ed Zeppeli]

I think he means that the mic itself is perpendicular to the cone; thus the mic diaphragm is parallel to the angled cone.

Makes sense to me and I may try it.

thanks,

Warren

[portishead]

I am by no means an expert on micing guitar cabs but I like to have as many options as possible during mixing:

1. RE-20 or SM7b in the same position as the SM57 mentioned above, but not so angled in.
2. I have yet to work wth a closed back cab, but i would usually shove an sm57 or 58 in the back, no special position.
3. Take a direct.

Between these three I can usually get the sound I am looking for (usually using a bland of 2/3 of the above to avoid any phasing issues) mixing alt. rock or metal. 1 = usually the right balance of sound but if not, 2 = in case the front of the cab isn't giving the bottom end, 3 = crunch.

Just my experience.

[bryan k]

Attached is a larger (more room) diagram to place mics around in, and also a basic mic locker image.

(**some of the images are generic for Large Diaphragm condensers, and a birds eye view looking down on a Royer 121, you get the idea.)

Cut/paste them in the diagram to show people how you mic your cab

[Tubthumper]

Bryan, here is a post from Butch Vig where he talks about his method.

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

Bryan, here is a post from Butch Vig where he talks about his method.

Good find!

[Tubthumper]

IIRC he mentioned elsewhere that he moves the mic until he finds the spot where the hiss is sounding the fullest.

[Luc Sabourin]

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

IIRC he mentioned elsewhere that he moves the mic until he finds the spot where the hiss is sounding the fullest.

So this doesn't necesarily means where the hiss is the loudest, but where it sounds the best??
I would guess that's what Butch means

[Tubthumper]

I think that's what he was getting at Luc. I'm sure the info will be easy to find in his Q & A area.

[crypticglobe]

For a very in your face, really ballsy and present guitar sound, that sounds just like your cabinet on it's best day. I recommend the attached image.

If you keep the angle (roughly 45 degrees) and the distance from the speaker grill exactly the same, you can move either one right or left to taste, though I generally find myself right about where it is in the picture. One might think, when one get's right down to the physics of it that the speaker grill might not be a good reference point because of the shape of a speaker. Over the years however, I have found it to work perfectly. Some like to take the grill off (some who get AMAZING guitar tones as well), but I prefer to leave them on. The grill does filter out some high end, but I find that it actually keeps the tone from getting harsh. I have never seen an amp designer working on their amp with a cabinet with no grill on the front....

You can also substitute any mic, though this combo is still my favorite for most any kind of rock. Ribbon mikes (Cascade Vinjet and Royer R121 are my favs) can be great for this too. However... be sure the diaphragms are lined up properly. Ribbons usually have large screens so you will have to back up your dynamic a bit to match the position of the diaphragm of the ribbon mic.

If you want this ballsy in your face sound with a little room as well... instead of adding a room mic, I prefer to add some compression with a slow attack time to one or both mics. The slow attack time will keep it from starting to sound mushy and you can use the amount of compression and release time to dial in how much room you want. And... your phase will remain perfect. VERY full and in your face tone.

I also experiment at times with this same configuration but bring the mics back off the speaker a bit. As long as you keep the distances of the mics diaphragms to the grill the same, and the angle as shown... it will work great. That can also give you less "in your face" and more of a "amp in a room" sound.

jmtc....

Rock on!

[Disjointed]

there is no spot for placement

every amp and every song is different

listen to it, every time.

( i like a 57 on the cone with a beyer m500 about 3 feet out)

[bryan k]

I just tried the Butch Vig method of finding the sweet spot.....

and i honestly dont think it works. I believe the only useful info you'll get by trying this is finding the speakers center (dust cap).

What i did:

Cranked my amp to volume 10.
Kept my guitar plugged in but the guitar volume pot was rolled off.
Had my headphones on and swept a Sm57 across the speaker.

The only thing i heard was fizzyness/Hiss increase as i hit the center of the speaker, and as i got closer to the speaker edge.....the fizzyness/Hiss was gone. As a matter of fact, as i was at the speaker edge, i heard almost NOTHING. Dead silent almost.......but then i swept across the speaker again.......and sure enough as i came to the speaker center all i heard was fizz/hiss.....and then back to silence as i hit the other speakers side/edge.

Not a bad trick, but nothing to find a Sweet Spot. Just helps find the speaker center if you have a dark grill cloth i think.

[Tubthumper]

Butch talked about having a lead plugged in to the amp, and the other end of the lead touching something, the cab, a chair, whatever, in order to generate hum. IIRC, that is - have never tried it myself.

[Aof]

It really depends on the sound you are after, but I have seen that for a Marshall, a 57 and a 421, pointed at dustcap/cone edge, same distance, and close to the amp is a very popular setup.
A flashlight is useful to check the position.

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by bryan k

....then they move the mic around till they can hear the loudest HISS and thats the "sweet spot".

Isnt the loudest HISS always coming from the center of the speaker......which is always too bright to record with?

You're not supposed to look for the loudest hiss, you're supposed to look for the spot that has the tonal/frequency balance that you like the most.

[foldback]

These days, I'm usually recording alone and my favorite ROCK speaker poison is a Marshall 4x12 cabinet. For years I would just experiment and guess about mic position until I got a set of EXTREME ISOLATION HEADPHONES (that's a brand).

These are basically hearing protectors with speakers mounted in them. They are not great sounding headphones but they are good enough for this task. With these headphones on I can play loud guitar chords through the amp, move the mic around and listen to find the best spot.

When you do it this way it will amaze you how much a little slight repositioning of the mic makes a world of difference in what you're getting on the recording.

Because of their isolation from the sound in the room these headphones let you get in front of something LOUD and hear the affect of moving the microphone position around.

An SM-57 can go from sounding thin and nasel to big and beefy when you get the mic in the right spot at the best angle.

Years ago I had a recording assistant who would go out in the studio and adjust the mic while I listened in the control room. Even with that help it was a frustrating experience because he would go past the sweet spot and we would try to get it again. Now with the isolation headphones I can nail the sound every time without guessing.

Usually I prefer the sound of a 421 to a 57 but I can make either work when I use my isolation headphones.

I'm not a fan of multiple microphones mixed together, the sound always gets more blurry to me. I sometimes mic a cab with a 57 and a 421 but I pan them hard left and right for dimension.

Best of luck to all in your quest for ultimate tone.

[jval]

Over time you'll get to know different speakers and cabs better, and it will take you less time to find the spot.
I've found it's generally around where the dust cap meets the cone. Start there, listen to the tone... if it's too bright move it a little towards the cone, and if you need more high end move it towards the centre.

If you do a lot of the same style of music, figure out what cab / speakers you like best and buy one for the studio. I have a Mesa cab I use with all the heavy bands I record... I know the cab really well and rarely have to move the mic around.

[crypticglobe]

When combining two mics... you really have to be sure the phase is correct.

Here is an example of me dwiddling away through the cabinet and mics pictured above.

I used 3 different guitars, but all the same amp/cabinet. The amp is a modded silverface bassman, and I use a few different overdrive pedals as I am going through different tones.

At the very beginning it comes in with both mics. Then I drop out the 421 and you will hear only the 57. Then I drop it out and bring up the 421 only. Then, I blend the two to my personal taste. After that they stay blended through the whole clip.

Hopefully this will show you can get a lot of different styles/tons through the same amp with the same micing just by being creative with the instrument and pedals.

Oh yeah... straight into my Seventh Circle N72's. No EQ..., no compression.... just straight in. These clips sound exactly like the cabinet does when standing in front of it. Yes... in many cases, in a mix... I would bump up the 3K area and use a little high pass, low pass... but this is just to show what the mic configuration above sounds like straight in.

MP3

Full quality 24bit 48K

[Silent Sound]

Originally Posted by foldback

These days, I'm usually recording alone and my favorite ROCK speaker poison is a Marshall 4x12 cabinet. For years I would just experiment and guess about mic position until I got a set of EXTREME ISOLATION HEADPHONES (that's a brand).

These are basically hearing protectors with speakers mounted in them. They are not great sounding headphones but they are good enough for this task. With these headphones on I can play loud guitar chords through the amp, move the mic around and listen to find the best spot.

When you do it this way it will amaze you how much a little slight repositioning of the mic makes a world of difference in what you're getting on the recording.

Because of their isolation from the sound in the room these headphones let you get in front of something LOUD and hear the affect of moving the microphone position around.

An SM-57 can go from sounding thin and nasel to big and beefy when you get the mic in the right spot at the best angle.

Years ago I had a recording assistant who would go out in the studio and adjust the mic while I listened in the control room. Even with that help it was a frustrating experience because he would go past the sweet spot and we would try to get it again. Now with the isolation headphones I can nail the sound every time without guessing.

Usually I prefer the sound of a 421 to a 57 but I can make either work when I use my isolation headphones.

I'm not a fan of multiple microphones mixed together, the sound always gets more blurry to me. I sometimes mic a cab with a 57 and a 421 but I pan them hard left and right for dimension.

Best of luck to all in your quest for ultimate tone.

Sometimes I try it this way. I use some in-the-ear isolation ear buds that have those ear plug like foam or rubber skirts to help isolate the sound. Then I further attenuate the sound with some noise cancelling headphones that you can get at a gun shop or hardware store (near the lawnmowers or chainsaws usually). With these two combined, I can just barely hear a drum set or a blaring half stack without them running through the ear buds! Works really well for someone when they are by themselves.

I used to use the hiss method. For that, I would crank the amp and plug in a guitar cable, and grab the other end in my hand so it did the grounding loop sound. Now I use my Line 6 DL-4 delay pedal and use the loop function to record and loop a quick line from the song. If I'm not using the delay pedal in the song, I remove it before recording, but I like using it better than the hiss. I feel it's a little more accurate. I'm always surprised how much one degree and a half inch will make when micing a guitar cab!

[bryan k]

Im actually considering just getting a re-amp device, so I can just record a quickie dry take (DI) and then re-amp it out and move the mic around in real time and hear how it sounds with the mix (with that track Monitoring engaged).

Something to try maybe

[Cheebs Goat]

Originally Posted by bryan k

Like everyone who gets so fessed up in frustration about finding the "sweet spot" on mic'ing a guitar cab......


One thing that has bothered me, is when people say they have a set of headphones and a guitar amp CRANKED....then they move the mic around till they can hear the loudest HISS and thats the "sweet spot".

Isnt the loudest HISS always coming from the center of the speaker......which is always too bright to record with? Essentially this method should be used to find the BRIGHTEST spot on your speaker, seems to me anyways.

i want to hear your guys/gals tips -n- tricks in finding it (sweet spot)......

Nothing in the headphones will do you any good unless:

*The guitar player is playing
and
*The already-recorded backing tracks (or the live band) are also playing


Then you can find the sweet spot. Bonus points if you use passive isolation headphones that knock external sound down about 30 db. Mega bonus points if you ditch the headphones altogether and listen in an isolated room on monitors while an assistant moves the mic.

[Slap Back]

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

When combining two mics... you really have to be sure the phase is correct.

Here is an example of me dwiddling away through the cabinet and mics pictured above.

I used 3 different guitars, but all the same amp/cabinet. The amp is a modded silverface bassman, and I use a few different overdrive pedals as I am going through different tones.

At the very beginning it comes in with both mics. Then I drop out the 421 and you will hear only the 57. Then I drop it out and bring up the 421 only. Then, I blend the two to my personal taste. After that they stay blended through the whole clip.

Hopefully this will show you can get a lot of different styles/tons through the same amp with the same micing just by being creative with the instrument and pedals.

Oh yeah... straight into my Seventh Circle N72's. No EQ..., no compression.... just straight in. These clips sound exactly like the cabinet does when standing in front of it. Yes... in many cases, in a mix... I would bump up the 3K area and use a little high pass, low pass... but this is just to show what the mic configuration above sounds like straight in.

MP3

Full quality 24bit 48K

Absolutely fantastic--- thanks for this and the mic placement instructions
What guitar/pedal are you getting the heavy detuned metal tone with?