Self producing - what's your approach?

[celebritymusic]

Hi

I am producing some of my songs at home, and was wondering what others' approach was to this?

At the moment, I am producing one by myself, and another is being produced by someone else.

One thing I find hard is imagining exactly what the drums should be. i guess traditionally, if you're in a band situation, someone brings a song to the band, it gets built up piece by piece, and probably gets played live quite a few times, so that when it comes time to record it, the parts have pretty much been sorted out, and you know what's going to work or not work.

For the solo, self producing artists out there, how does this work if you're not performing them live? For me, I usually try and preproduce the song for a couple of weeks so that my ideas have time to formulate, but even then I am nervous about using a drum service, because the song structure can often change.

I guess that's what makes the great producers really special. they can hear how the song will sound, and so can make a solid decision about the fundamental rhythm parts before they've been recorded.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I ask because I assume there are a lot of bedroom musos using online session services, and possibly not getting the best result due to a lack of production insight - something i am dealing with.

Thanks!

Shaun

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by celebritymusic

I guess that's what makes the great producers really special. they can hear how the song will sound, and so can make a solid decision about the fundamental rhythm parts before they've been recorded.

All producers work differently Shaun and very few have the 'insight' to know what is great 'before' it is great. In my experience the best producers have alot of intuition and can feel when the energy, performance, feel, vibe etc is there.
Some have little musical contribution...and others have a massive percentage of the writing and creating of the parts including arrangement. It all depends on the artist / producer relationship...

Originally Posted by celebritymusic

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I ask because I assume there are a lot of bedroom musos using online session services, and possibly not getting the best result due to a lack of production insight - something i am dealing with.

Thanks!

Shaun

Yes bro, I have a ton of thoughts on this as I have been self producing for a long time...as well as producing for other artists..

It ain't easy!!
Not if you also have to engineer.

I love the producing and writing...I don't like the engineering part. I ain't no engineer, even after years behind the wheel.

It can be challenging to capture 'energy' if you are playing and writing all of the parts but it can certainly be done (Stevie Wonder, Prince, George Michael, Lenny Kravitz etc). My approach is simple...I play each part like it is band practice until I get it the way I want...then I move on. Having played music for so long and been playing both Bass and guitar professionally I have a solid idea how I would approach the songs from a real players standpoint...and I use that perspective all of the time and it helps.

My contribution..if I had anyone thing to say to someone who was getting stuck doing it all themselves is...don't over do it. Keep it simple and keep it as honest as possible. Don't lose sight of the song or let it take you down some random road.

I am about to finish 6 demo songs (self produced) and use them to negotiate a deal with a producer. This next album of mine needs the insight of another great mind and a great engineer...I need to focus on performing.

My vision is often much clearer if I am producing another artist...but I can get too deep into my own ideas when I am the artist and can I lose sight of the main thing...the big picture.

Heres a tune from the demo series...
My interpretation of Ballpeen Hammer...
Not a typical rock tune but getting the vibe right even for a demo takes the right approach.

Respect and best to you,

[Syki]

Amen , Rodney Gene ...I love to write, produce and track also . Mixing is a whole other monster sometimes better left for the true mix masters (art form unto itself) ..I would love to hear your demo when you are finished!

[cletus]

I am currently producing myself. I agree with Rodney Gene in that it's best to approach the song much like you would with a band, work out individual parts of a song and then move on to the next. If I am recording scratch tracks for ideas, I've found that taking notes is essential i.e what parts I liked and where they are, what playlist it's located in etc.

As far as drum stuff goes I've been using BFD with a trigger finger for basic ideas with pretty good results. It really helps me feel what direction I want the song to go in after I have a basic drum part down.

The biggest thing that I've learned is to write the song and then start F@#$%-ing with the computer. There's no better killer of inspiration than having to deal with some technical issue and then try to get back in "zone". Don't get me wrong though, I strongly support the idea of throwing a mic up real quick to track basic ideas or jams, you never now what's gonna happen and it's always good to have as a reference. I definitely think it's best to have some body do tape op for you when you do get down to recordingt, it's just better for the overall "mood" if nothing else. Good luck with your stuff bro!

[AlexLakis]

Self producing?

I like to start by getting my client nice and stoned.

Drums can be hard for self-producers who aren't drummers to hash out. Why not hire a drummer to come over and jam on some of the songs? Hell, you could even record him while he isn't looking!

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

All producers work differently Shaun and very few have the 'insight' to know what is great 'before' it is great. In my experience the best producers have alot of intuition and can feel when the energy, performance, feel, vibe etc is there.
Some have little musical contribution...and others have a massive percentage of the writing and creating of the parts including arrangement. It all depends on the artist / producer relationship...


Yes bro, I have a ton of thoughts on this as I have been self producing for a long time...as well as producing for other artists..

It ain't easy!!
Not if you also have to engineer.

I love the producing and writing...I don't like the engineering part. I ain't no engineer, even after years behind the wheel.

It can be challenging to capture 'energy' if you are playing and writing all of the parts but it can certainly be done (Stevie Wonder, Prince, George Michael, Lenny Kravitz etc). My approach is simple...I play each part like it is band practice until I get it the way I want...then I move on. Having played music for so long and been playing both Bass and guitar professionally I have a solid idea how I would approach the songs from a real players standpoint...and I use that perspective all of the time and it helps.

My contribution..if I had anyone thing to say to someone who was getting stuck doing it all themselves is...don't over do it. Keep it simple and keep it as honest as possible. Don't lose sight of the song or let it take you down some random road.

I am about to finish 6 demo songs (self produced) and use them to negotiate a deal with a producer. This next album of mine needs the insight of another great mind and a great engineer...I need to focus on performing.

My vision is often much clearer if I am producing another artist...but I can get too deep into my own ideas when I am the artist and can I lose sight of the main thing...the big picture.

Heres a tune from the demo series...
My interpretation of Ballpeen Hammer...
Not a typical rock tune but getting the vibe right even for a demo takes the right approach.

Respect and best to you,

A friend of mine is a solo country artist, and we track each new idea and instument one at a time. Yes, it can be terribly exausting when it takes 10 hours to track a song that is 4 min. long. Mixdown is usually a process of what to remove, rather than what to add...as many ideas are recorded "just in case"
I think that the bands who record also go through this kind of creative process, only they have worked it out in rehersal before coming to the studio. There may be a few that have a solid vision of exactly the way the song should sound, but for most , the vision is only a guildeline.
By the way, that MP3 demo song posted sounds REALLY GREAT!

[popmann]

I think self producing is to producing like masturbation is to having sex.

They both get you to the same place, technically...but, they're wholely different experiences-for participants AND audience.

TMI?

[Syki]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Self producing?

I like to start by getting my client nice and stoned.

Drums can be hard for self-producers who aren't drummers to hash out. Why not hire a drummer to come over and jam on some of the songs? Hell, you could even record him while he isn't looking!

Exactly!! On some of my productions I'll start off with a midi Sketch on my MPC3000 or S770 or Reasons or Stylus. I'll record a 2 trax mix in protools and (spend the money) go to one of the studios here in Phili with a drummer and record them....take it back home and either chop it or use the whole performance and mix it. Same for big vocal arrangements!

[autodidactic]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

Heres a tune from the demo series...
My interpretation of Ballpeen Hammer...
Not a typical rock tune but getting the vibe right even for a demo takes the right approach.

Respect and best to you,

Hey Rodney, your tune kicks ass.

[Confusionator]

I self-produce our band and my own records.

When I'm the expert on the part/instrument, I play it. And I love self-producing because I get all the time in the world I need to get the part down right.

But when I'm not the expert (e.g. I suck on guitar) and no one else in the band is either, then I call in an expert player. Because not only will his EXECUTION be better than mine, but so will his CONCEPT.

Now, that being said, I'm very careful whom I call in. I consider this part of the work to be akin to a casting director's job in movies. Every actor or musician has a very limited range. I expect Tom Cruise to do Tom Cruise well, but if I need George Clooney for the part I'm not going to hope that I can bend Tom Cruise's nature enough that he will be able to pull that off.

I just finished an album which shows this well. You can hear clips at http://www.fredmorgenstern.com. (This is not intended to be SPAM. Don't go unless you want.)

[keithl]

I am usually comfortable with producing myself in one way, because I usually hear the "full" song in my head when recording...my problem is know when to STOP!

The problem I have is when no take is good enough....
or I'll record a bunch of tracks....feel it's not meshing...tear it down and start again....

I really need somebody at my side going, "that take is a keeper" or "why are you starting over...all it needs is X"

That kind of stuff.

[MichaelT]

Originally Posted by keithl

I am usually comfortable with producing myself in one way, because I usually hear the "full" song in my head when recording...my problem is know when to STOP!

The problem I have is when no take is good enough....
or I'll record a bunch of tracks....feel it's not meshing...tear it down and start again....

I really need somebody at my side going, "that take is a keeper" or "why are you starting over...all it needs is X"

That kind of stuff.

This is pretty much me. At least 85% of the time I know what I want creatively, and mostly I just need someone who's great at motivation and nudging me in the right directions...someone who helps me do "my thing" better and is reserved enough to jump in creatively only when necessary. So in one sense I do have to trust them creatively when the time comes, but for the most part I just need someone I gel with. Depending on who it is I may trust them and yield to them more on the creative side of things, but that is based on stuff they've done in the past that I respect.

-Mike

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by keithl

I am usually comfortable with producing myself in one way, because I usually hear the "full" song in my head when recording...my problem is know when to STOP!

The problem I have is when no take is good enough....
or I'll record a bunch of tracks....feel it's not meshing...tear it down and start again....

I really need somebody at my side going, "that take is a keeper" or "why are you starting over...all it needs is X"

That kind of stuff.

I too find this but...

Paradoxically, its the comfort factor that im worried about. Being too comfortable with what you are doing means your music isn't developing. An external influence like a hired producer will push you into uncomfortable territories in hope of extracting new and different musical ideas and processes.

That is why self-producing requires a much greater degree of self criticism, otherwise the processes and methods become the artists or composers own cliche... take Nickelback for example.

[tomwehrle]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

I too find this but...

Paradoxically, its the comfort factor that im worried about. Being too comfortable with what you are doing means your music isn't developing. An external influence like a hired producer will push you into uncomfortable territories in hope of extracting new and different musical ideas and processes.

That is why self-producing requires a much greater degree of self criticism, otherwise the processes and methods become the artists or composers own cliche... take Nickelback for example.

I know what you're saying here, and on one hand I agree...but on the other I dont always think that just because a producer is telling you what way to do something, is it always for the better...I've heard a lot of self produced stuff that I think is really good...and if you're able to pull it off, congrats, but I'd probably say its more safe to get someone to co-produce it with you, that way you have someone to bounce ideas off

[tomwehrle]

Originally Posted by Confusionator

I self-produce our band and my own records.

When I'm the expert on the part/instrument, I play it. And I love self-producing because I get all the time in the world I need to get the part down right.

But when I'm not the expert (e.g. I suck on guitar) and no one else in the band is either, then I call in an expert player. Because not only will his EXECUTION be better than mine, but so will his CONCEPT.

Now, that being said, I'm very careful whom I call in. I consider this part of the work to be akin to a casting director's job in movies. Every actor or musician has a very limited range. I expect Tom Cruise to do Tom Cruise well, but if I need George Clooney for the part I'm not going to hope that I can bend Tom Cruise's nature enough that he will be able to pull that off.

I just finished an album which shows this well. You can hear clips at http://www.fredmorgenstern.com. (This is not intended to be SPAM. Don't go unless you want.)

Yeah, what you say here is very important...dont get a gospel drummer in to do rock tracks, you're never gonna get the sound you want...i had written something to answer the original question about drum ideas but it somehow didnt post...anyways, to sum it up, getting a good musician to play on your stuff should be your #1 goal when recording, cause with your lack of ideas they'll be able to put on the table some of their ideas that very will could work, or at least give you a good place to start...so yeah, get a good drummer that is good at what style you're trying to record...problem almost solved

[u b k]

#1: THE SONG. i write the song on one instrument, usually guitar, and develop the lyrics at the same time. i'm not done with this phase until i can play the song, start to finish, on the guitar. then, and only then, do i sit down with a beatbox and flesh out the groove. as a drummer, it's usually in my head already, but oftentimes the moment reveals something better.

#2: THE BASICS: i go to a studio here in town that has a 2" 8track, and i record the drums and my nylon string there. i play along to a click, guide vocals and gtr done at home. at this point, the engineer there usually has some ideas and suggestions for what he hears. last time, we recorded sleigh bells, and more inspiration was born for me.

#3 THE VOICE: back home, i track vocals. i now have a song, start to finish. the rest is...

#4 THE DETAILS: synth parts, buzzes and bleeps, strings, harmony vocals. this is where the full song reveals itself in realtime, as i'm working. sometimes, the arrangement evolves a little, and i gotta edit the basics to stretch a part, or create a breakdown... whatever.

#5 THE MIX: usually takes 1-2 weeks, as little arrangement things still come up, a part gets scrapped, a new one joins the party.


here a few KEY points that i've learned over time, which make the whole process go a lot smoother and faster.

A) notice that, for me, there is no fiddling around on the DAW until step #4, which is late in the game. fiddling on the DAW is the enemy of completion. i don't tweak compressors or eq's, explore synth textures, or do any of the fun and games until the song is written and the bulk of the arrangement has been committed to tape.

keep your process focused.


B) compose in headphones. 7506's work for me. i do this because everything sounds good, always, so i'm not distracted by the engineering shit before it's appropriate. when i'm writing a song, i don't want to be producing it. that way my brain is not wasting energy analyzing the smack of the snare, which frees it up to hear whether a part is adding to a song or just taking up space.

keep your stages of production discrete.


C) when you mix, try this: mute the vocals, start with the fundamentals of the music, and let the song cycle in complete passes. drop in a new part with each pass, and be aware of how the music, as you've written and arranged it, carries the song. use the least amount of elements necessary to generate excitement, carry the dynamics, and support the overall vibe.

just because you've written a part, and just because the part is cool or exciting, does not mean the song needs it. the mute button is your best friend.

keep your ego's interests out of the way of the music's.


also, for me, the occasional checking in with really good herb does wonders. once a week at most, otherwise it loses its magic. seek outside perspective often. never stop checking out new music. last night, while buying jeans, i heard the sweetest riff. i'm adapting the groove for a song that's in the works.

keep your ears open, always. inspiration is everywhere.


gregoire
del ubik

[wallace]

I don't quite understand your question. Are you wondering how to write drum parts, or are you wondering how they should sound in the end? Do you need drums on all your songs? Get a drum machine and do quick demos of the songs (spend like a half hour or so on each), and see how the groove feels. If you think you're going to need live drums, get a good drummer and record the songs live with bass/guitar and drums. It's easy to stack instruments on top from there.

When it comes to making decisions in the studio, I tend to do it quickly and impulsively. To me it's a lot like the way light exposes film very quickly, and how the first images are captured; if the shutter is open too long it gets overexposed. If I have an idea when I'm recording a new song, I'll usually try it immediately. I just stay open to any small thought that comes in my head, then magnify it. And I just go off the energy; the better songs I've recorded have kept me manic and energized for about a week. What I'm trying to say is that I rely more on feeling and intuition than pre-planned thought (though that's important and how I work on older stuff). Since I record a lot by myself, I've also tried to think of ways to rely less on traditional drums. Some of the ideas I've come up with include: making rhythms by ripping paper, throwing pennies in a pile, slapping on my lap, claves, guiros, eggs, shakers, clapping slapping on wood tables, drum machines with guitar pedals, real drum samples, looped drums recorded from previous recordings, live drums, no drums, etc. I also appropriate a lot of my older stuff, kind of like making a collage.

So just be creative, look for the inspiration, and go with what feels right. Get a good drummer to write and record the parts (in a good studio if possible) if that's what the songs need.

[pan60]

nice Rodney

[Rodney Gene]

So many approaches...and yet so many consistencies...

Totally opposite from U B I K..I keep the tape rolling constantly. I have my single MXLV69 plugged in to my RME Fireface...and I record when I play. (The whole demo album is just the Fireface and MXL) That's it.

I manage to keep the spontaniety that way...
My last self-produced record was total polish, shine, perfection and safe. Great and boring.

Originally Posted by Syki

Amen , Rodney Gene ...I love to write, produce and track also . Mixing is a whole other monster sometimes better left for the true mix masters (art form unto itself) ..I would love to hear your demo when you are finished!

...Mixing!!! is fun, to me anyway...but only when the original source tracks sound good. But I still find that after 10 years or so I am just barely catching the glimpses and uniqueness of the way I personally like to mix (or can mix)....and Syki, thanks for the compliment, I would be honored to share the tunes...

Originally Posted by Yetti

A friend of mine is a solo country artist, and we track each new idea and instument one at a time. Yes, it can be terribly exausting when it takes 10 hours to track a song that is 4 min. long. Mixdown is usually a process of what to remove, rather than what to add...

Hey bro, that is exactly what happens here ALL of the time!! Some times I have 40 tracks (lot's of extra vocal tracks as I love vocals) It takes experience and restraint to leave out tracks and keep the best interest of the song and vision intact. Although I have found that the vision can change or even improve through different arrangments of different track ideas...sometimes even transforming into new ideas. Much like a band in rehearsal.

Originally Posted by Yetti

I think that the bands who record also go through this kind of creative process, only they have worked it out in rehersal before coming to the studio. There may be a few that have a solid vision of exactly the way the song should sound, but for most , the vision is only a guildeline.

Absolutley...!!

Originally Posted by Yetti

By the way, that MP3 demo song posted sounds REALLY GREAT!

Thank you bro!! That means alot to me, honestly!

Originally Posted by autodidactic

Hey Rodney, your tune kicks ass.

Thank you!! Honestly!

Originally Posted by Ziggy

Paradoxically, its the comfort factor that im worried about. Being too comfortable with what you are doing means your music isn't developing. An external influence like a hired producer will push you into uncomfortable territories in hope of extracting new and different musical ideas and processes.

This is true..and in my experience also the other way around. I find that if I am comfortable with my instrument, song, headspace etc..then recording comes really easy. I do ALOT of first takes and just keep em'. I think one trap that people fall into is that they do take after take after take...out of habit. In my experience, I can get excellent energy from the first take..and if that fails then I have to resort to massive concentration (at least for guitar) and push myself out of the comfort zone.

Sometimes I have to take a piss or my ass hurts from the chair...and I stink and I am sweating and my back feels like shit...but I won't move until I nail that take in one shot...!! Somehow being under the pressure really helps me perform.

Originally Posted by UBIK

keep your process focused.

Agreed... and at the same time don't lose sight of the songs expression or which hat you are wearing. For me, producing and writing are one in the same, even when I am working with other artists. Flow and process is good, but being flexible in your approach is also good IME.

Originally Posted by UBIK

keep your ego's interests out of the way of the music's.

Originally Posted by UBIK

also, for me, the occasional checking in with really good herb does wonders. once a week at most, otherwise it loses its magic. seek outside perspective often.

Of course...'herb' works for some folks... but it is not the path to creative freedom and expression...nor open mindedness for alot of us. There is also mediatation, play time with your dogs, nature, sex, and just the unbelievable magic of the moment...!! And for me...Coffee!!!



BTW.... One other thing I would like to add that MAY help the self production warrior...Don't duplicate parts with cut and paste (at least play each track all the way through several times and pick the best parts from them like old school tape recording)...avoid auto-tune (as much as you can) Be yourself...focus on the music...not the elusive sound ghosts...

Forget hoping for, wondering about, and questioning why you are not getting world class production at home... unless you have the gear and skill it won't happen. It really does require excellent gear (including the room) and the knowledge in order to reach a particular result...(Don't chase the Dragons tail) Your music and the entire reason you got into this will suffer...

Keep the main thing the main thing....make great recordings and get them out here for all of us to ponder.

Much Respect,

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

Forget hoping for, wondering about, and questioning why you are not getting world class production at home... unless you have the gear and skill it won't happen. It really does require excellent gear (including the room) and the knowledge in order to reach a particular result...(Don't chase the Dragons tail) Your music and the entire reason you got into this will suffer...

Keep the main thing the main thing....make great recordings and get them out here for all of us to ponder.

stike stike stike stike

it is so unbelievably simple, yet so very difficult, to achieve and then maintain that level of detachment. from my vantage point it requires a beautiful and precarious balancing of the will to create and the space to allow; the relentless drive to improve and the humble acceptance of my current limitations; and the recognition that everything i do is divinely perfect yet still has room for improvement.

i agree 1000%: the main thing is completing the art and giving it over to the world. it will be loved, hated, ignored, revered, consumed, judged, adored, and forgotten.

just keep giving.


gregoire
del ubik

[DAWgEAR]

ubik: great posts

Rodney: killer tune. great posts too.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by DAWgEAR

ubik: great posts

Rodney: killer tune. great posts too.

I second that!

[Sqye]

Some really great posts - I just read the last few by Ubik and Rodney Gene.

Thanks for sharting your processes so intimately, guys - that's really cool, and inspiring.

And, btw - Ubik, my process is not so different.

Carry on, lads

[dreamsongs]

Good stuff...

I completely agree with the above posts as I go through all these processes every day. To some degree, I do quite a lot of what's been said in equal measures.

Also, since I write and perform my work mostly alone, my perspective changes and sways a bit from day to day.

If I work on a song for hours and hours and then revisit it a couple of days later, I find my vision has changed a bit. With a set of fresh ears, a lot of things change.

I might want to change the bass line or guitar part etc.. It's a process, and with some songs I find, I want to tweak them to death to get them perfect. Only to find, that 2 days later, what I thought I liked, I'm not so sure again...

In the end, you have to make decisions, you might end up with 50 or 60 tracks of all kinds of things. After all the recording, tweaking, perfecting, re-recording all over again I usually revert to the original idea I had for the song in the first place.

Except that now it's a little more polished and re-refined. If I heard the song in my head as a whole ensemble (it happens to me a lot), like a radio in your head, complete with arrangements and all, it usually ends up very close to that.

If I started with a riff or a title or a basic idea it can end up anywhere. Sometimes a good anywhere, other times not so good. That's when I lock myself in the studio and don't come out for days... I come out looking like Tom Hanks in "Castaway", weight loss, beard and hopefully a sense of " I did what I had to do". That's when my fiance thinks I'm losing my mind. But then she listens to the song and a big smile comes over her face.

There are many approaches to delivering the final product, all viable and valuable.
It's really what works for you...but you also have to have discipline and passion with whatever method you use to see it through all the way. And hopefully, make the right decisions along the way.

[celebritymusic]

Are you engaged to Wilson the ball?

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by celebritymusic

Are you engaged to Wilson the ball?

That's funny...!

I took me a while to get it...

[garymusic]

Self producing for me is a way to keep control over the final results. "Look what they done to my song.. ma" can be reality when you hand over the producers hat to another person who's view is different than yours. Sometimes it will end up great and other times it can be a total waste of money. You'll end up having something that is produced with the producers vision (and you were even in the room while it was going on) and you won't release it... BUT you still paid the producer and the musicians that he hired and studio time. Anyway, it can be big money down the drain.

So... that is why I self produce these days and self record. My whole view of the process is different. AND I don't count my gear purchases in my business model.

-Gary

[garymusic]

Bump... This is a great topic.

-Gary

[neve1073]

Originally Posted by u b i k

also, for me, the occasional checking in with really good herb does wonders. once a week at most, otherwise it loses its magic. seek outside perspective often.