A hole in the market?

[tom_c]

well, Ive just spent the evening hunting, but to little avail... I need to bolster my lean mic collection with a figure of 8 mic of some sorts for acc. guitar.

Unfortunately, due to very tight budget consraints Ive only got at the most £800 to spend

There seems to be a few options in the 'upto £400' category, and then the interesting ones seem to lie in the £1200+ range, with very little inbetween.

Trying to put royers, the R84 and assorted multi-patterners out of mind, all I can find is. the AT 4050, 414 or the Beyer M130.

I'd really like to get something a little better than the more 'entry level' options, but just cant find that extra cash. (Im down to eating alternate days as it is... )

Im not a huge 414(ULS) fan - I did some listening when I got my TLM103. Ive used the 4050 quite a bit before, and liked it, but that was before i really had any clue what I was doing.

Anyone know of a little-heard-of gem that may be in the budget please? Or maybe someone wants to sell me something s/h? Otherwise, Im going to have sell another limb...

Many many thanks in advance,
best wishes,
Tom
-aspiring gear slut

[Jules]

Sorry for being a moron, but can someone explain the positioning & logic behind the figure of 8 technique in this aplication?

Acc gtr is usually an overdub round here!



Thanks!

[Rader Ranch]

this was a George Massenburg description of an ac. gtr. micing technique:

The guitar mic was a C-24 with dual Stephen Paul 0.7 micron capsules, running in MS. The MS was set quite close to the instrument, just an inch or so east of the hole, and positioned to pick up a "vertical" sound stage rather than a horizontal one. Furthermore, it was mixed so as to greatly exaggerate the width; that is, a strum top to bottom becomes a far left to far right strum. Unusual, I know. The downside is that the vocal leakage is out of phase and exaggerated as well.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Jules
Sorry for being a moron, but can someone explain the positioning & logic behind the figure of 8 technique in this aplication?

If your tracking a vocal at the same time you can get about 90% rejection with a figure 8 mic if the patterns are tight. It's enough that you can actually punch the vocal or guitar if you needed to. Maybe not for a solo piece, but in a typical rock or alt-country track with lots of other stuff around it nobody will ever know. I also like using figure 8 mics on electric guitar, exaggerated promixity effect and adding some room tone are good things. Sometimes.

[NathanEldred]

800 pounds equals to about $1300 USD (a few dollars less actually). For figure of 8 capability specifically, and in your price range, I suggest either the ADK A-48 (generally a softer top and slightly rounder lows) or the ADK TT (somewhat of a more open top and very tight lows, but not bright by any means). I would think even with tarriffs you can meet this figure. Unless tarriffs are more than 30% (I doubt it), but I don't know for sure.

[tom_c]

Humm... thanks for the thoughts guys.

Nathan, now I look, thats a good point. $1000 = £624 + 17.5%VAT = £733 + Import duty.

Id just been looking at UK prices - eg Royer 121s are £880. Which thinking about it now Im a little more awake this morning is maybe do-able. Time to see if the inland revenue owe me any tax back.

Jules, I do a lot of singing guitarists, and small accoustic groups where the guitaris is the lead singer. As Jay said, Ive only ever been able to avoid things turning into a muffy phasy mess when Ive had a fig-8 on the guitar, aiming the dead axis at their mouth.

oops, better go to work.
thanks for all the replies!
Tom

[tom_c]

Does anyone know anythin more about the ADK mics please? I cant find that much out about them, and I dont fancy buying blind with this one!
Humm... the R84s are cheaper than the Royer now. too.



Some good prices over there in the states...

many thanks
Tom

[Mark]

Seeing as how you're a Lahndahner why don't you pop down to Turnkey on Charing Cross Road (112 - 114) and ask to try out one of their ADK A-48s? They sell them for £549. Which is pretty close to the U.S. price (if you convert it to Sterling and add taxes). Which is unusual given that the U.K. Pro-Audio Retail Industry's version of the $/£ Exchange Rate is usually 1:1 .

[lomola]

[tom_c]

Hey thanks for the tip mark! Crikey thats cheap - theyre $1295 list!

Humm... I have quite strong feelings about Turnkey from wonderful past experiences. Maybe I could take one home....

thanks for the link lomola - I was just hoping for a bit more info, i could only find one paragraph!

cheers guys,

Tom

[Mark]

You're welcome (and, whoops, I got the address slightly wrong. Not that wrong though).

They also have the TT for £640 and the CE for £840 (the latter being the Commemorative Edition ()), should you want to give them all a go.

[NathanEldred]

Best of luck with it Tom, if you try them definitely compare the A-48 with the TT (or CE if they don't have a plain TT). If you have time, let us know what you think of the mics.

[tom_c]

Will do. Im trying to work out how I might be able to get them all at home once to try them in context. Hummm..

I was just speaking to one of the guys at work to, and he suggested some more options that may be worth a try - AT4050-4060, Coles 4038, SureKSM44...

Fletch/Nathan you guys really need to open a showroom over here :-)

Talking of comparisions, http://www.thelisteningsessions.com is well worth an ear.

thanks again guys...

Tom

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by tom_c


Fletch/Nathan you guys really need to open a showroom over here :-)

The old Mick Jagger estate that he had in the 70's will suffice (would that be condsidered a 'home' studio?).

[tom_c]

yeah!

humm... http://www.funky-junk.co.uk

[madrigal]

The Coles is great alright, but you need to be careful matching it with pres - anything with too low an input impedance won't sound good.

If you're not dead set against the royers, There's an r122 on ebay for well under £800 (if you can persuade the guy selling it to ship it to you). Check it out here

I got my r122 offa ebay too for lots<£800, and am mightily impressed with it. It really is a fantastic mic on accoustic guitars, and much less finicky about what pre it's use with than other ribbons (not to mention the fact that its hotter output is really useful).

[tom_c]

Thanks for the thoughts. I have to admit, at the moment, having had a quick listen to the Royer demo tracks, Im tossing things up between an AT4050 and the 121... I know theyre very different beasts. Im just trying to work out what will be the best thing for me all-round. I heard the 4050 head to head with a TLM103, and it looses all the things I dislike about the 103 on guitar. Also, it will probably be more usefull in my variety of less-than-ideal rooms than a fixed fig8. Also, as you can get the 4050 pretty cheap now, so I may be able to buy the royer as well before too long! Once ive got the bases well and truely covered that I think I can afford to splash out on something a bit special...

thanks again everyone for all the input,
'best
Tom

[Jay Kahrs]

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the R-121 on acoustic guitar. It's usually too dark and muddy, plus noise from the room and preamp can become an issue.

[Saucyjack]

Jumping in late here,
The 4050 is a damn useful mic.I got a Royer/AEA/Soundelux/ so my doesn't get as much use as it used to but that Mic almost never sounds bad and usually finds it's way on most songs.
I think for a standard Acoustic Gtr setup you would get more mileage from a 4050 than a Royer.I've tried the Royer on Acoustics and I agree with Jay it usually doesn't have enough sparkle for me.

[tom_c]

Thanks for the toughts. It helps a lot. I think Im definitely going for a 4050. Ive always liked them when ive heard them. Then I should have all the 'normal' things covered so next time I have some cash I can find somehting more interesting... Maybe a Royer, or one of the ADKs...

all the best
Tom

[Mark]

Are you sure you don't want one of these?


Sure looks purty to me

*** Sure looks big to me. Try to keep all the photos sized so that you can see all of it at once. Also, smaller pics load faster.

-Moosely

[Mark]

Could someone resize that?

[Jay Kahrs]

This is much better.

[Ted Nightshade]

Dave G recommended Sennheiser MKH series. That's the one I'm drooling over so far.

[tom_c]

very tempted too. Just had a bit of luck and may be after both now afterall...

The R84 just looks like a bugger to fit anywhere. Eg a singing guitarist. Or maybe theyre not as big as they look...

Ill have to see if I can get a hold of the two and have a listen....

cheers, guys
Tom

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by tom_c


The R84 just looks like a bugger to fit anywhere. Or maybe theyre not as big as they look...

Tom,

Here is a size reference that may be helpful to you.

[jspartz]

I have a pair of 4050's and I would suggest them. I have done some choir recordings with them in fig. 8 and it turned out very well. They are a very flexible microphone.

jason

[tom_c]

Nathan, thats great! Its is a little smaller than I thought though.

Jason, good to have another reccomendation - I think Ive made my mind up now - Im getting a 4050, and also having alisten to a few of the ribbons together for something more characterfull....

thanks for all the help choosing guys.
'best
Tom

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by tom_c
Nathan, thats great! Its is a little smaller than I thought though.

LOL!

[faeflora]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
Tom,

Here is a size reference that may be helpful to you.

eh lol